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  #261  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:58 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
It does not matter if the primary audience reading a particular gospel was Gentile. Jesus' WORDS in those book were to JEWS.
I think you're erring on not realizing the reality of the textual development. All we have are the recollections of four different authors regarding what Christ taught. They were written years after the fact. And each author wrote each Gospel to different primary audiences. Now, these were circulated in their given communities for years before being compiled into the canon. Let's look at Luke and Matthew. You'll note that Luke was more widely circulated throughout Italy and Greece. Matthew was more widely circulated throughout Judea. Not to mention, Matthew delves more deeply into Jewish custom and mannerisms, which we don't see so much of in Luke.

If they were not writing with their audiences in mind, recollecting the relevant teachings of Jesus for their audiences, and intended an analytical record of Christ's exact words... then why did Mark and Luke choose to contradict Matthew??? Or... might Matthew be contradicting Mark and Luke???
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  #262  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:22 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

All this confusion, point, counter point, etc.... for a spurious justification of something that clearly isn't God's perfect will. LOL

I'm amazed that some have not leaned back, taken a breath, and looked at the whole thing and noted the problem clearly.

God desires that spouses reconcile. While divorcees do tend to remarry others, it isn't God's perfect will that they do so. God would be far more pleased if one lived a celibate life while desiring reconciliation with the wife of their youth.

If we drop all the crazy attempts to justify remarriage after divorce (adultery)...it becomes rather simple. It's sin. Just like Mark and Luke state that it is:
Mark 10:11-12
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Neither Mark nor Luke offer an exception. They are rather iron clad. If there were any exception, we'd expect it to be noted by both Mark and Luke, after all... that is some real important information.

Why even try to justify a remarriage? Why not admit it, confess it, and get the sin under the blood? Is it worth the fight to keep it out from under the blood???

So far, I've seen multiple interpretations that go several different directions, all to simply justify a second marriage after divorce.

Last edited by Antipas; 05-15-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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  #263  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:51 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

I'm also struggling with the pastoral application of the Matthean exception clause.

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario and see how it is applied. Those of you with pastoral experience, please chime in here. Your input will be extremely valuable.

Let's say that you're a pastor. And a couple in your church approaches you and wishes you to conduct and bless their wedding, but one of them is a divorcee.

How do you manage this?
- Do you inquire as to the "grounds" of the divorce?

- Do you request to see court documentation stating adultery/sexual unfaithfulness as the official grounds?

- If the paperwork doesn't specifically state adultery as the grounds for divorce, do you allow the individual to explain how their previous spouse's adultery was the reason for the divorce and why it isn't specified as the official legal grounds?

- How do you verify their testimony?

- Do you request contact information so that you can verify this with their ex-spouse?

- How do you ensure that the "exception clause" is indeed followed and enforced so that you and your ministry isn't implicated in the sin of an adulterous second marriage?
Applied theology is often the best test of truth. How does this exception clause work in real life???
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  #264  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:07 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
I think you're erring on not realizing the reality of the textual development. All we have are the recollections of four different authors regarding what Christ taught. They were written years after the fact. And each author wrote each Gospel to different primary audiences. Now, these were circulated in their given communities for years before being compiled into the canon. Let's look at Luke and Matthew. You'll note that Luke was more widely circulated throughout Italy and Greece. Matthew was more widely circulated throughout Judea. Not to mention, Matthew delves more deeply into Jewish custom and mannerisms, which we don't see so much of in Luke.

If they were not writing with their audiences in mind, recollecting the relevant teachings of Jesus for their audiences, and intended an analytical record of Christ's exact words... then why did Mark and Luke choose to contradict Matthew??? Or... might Matthew be contradicting Mark and Luke???
Why don't you apply this logic to other seeming contradictions in the various gospels? Why are you singling out the exception clause.
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  #265  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:58 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Jewish Marriage, Betrothal Divorce, and Remarriage

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And, do we have information showing the standard Judean practice for a man who discovers his betrothed is not, in fact, a virgin?
Some of these questions should be handled in the following literature:

Facebook group
Jewish Marriage, Betrothal Divorce, and Remarriage
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1420708881546803/

Jewish Marriage, Betrothal Divorce, and Remarriage
Discovering “Except for a Word of Fornication” in the Old and New Testaments
Sharon Henry - .DOC file
https://www.facebook.com/download/35...oOp3W9GEYSLWt-

The current post discussing Leslie McFall (1944-2015) is interesting.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1420...7053317579017/

While there might be some places where my emphasis would be a little different, overall this is likely the best paper on the issue today. For those who have no Facebook involvement, we can look for an alternative host for the ..doc file and any related material.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 05-15-2019 at 06:07 PM.
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  #266  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:35 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Why don't you apply this logic to other seeming contradictions in the various gospels? Why are you singling out the exception clause.
Have I argued against other such "contradictions"?

If memory serves me correctly, I've mentioned how Matthew notes a number of Jewish traditions and customs that the other Gospels do not.
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  #267  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:41 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

:. You dismiss the exception clause based on faulty reasoning. :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
Have I argued against other such "contradictions"?

If memory serves me correctly, I've mentioned how Matthew notes a number of Jewish traditions and customs that the other Gospels do not.
But you are not calling those into question, only Matthew 19:9.
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  #268  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:41 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Jewish Marriage, Betrothal Divorce, and Remarr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Some of these questions should be handled in the following literature:

Facebook group
Jewish Marriage, Betrothal Divorce, and Remarriage
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1420708881546803/

Jewish Marriage, Betrothal Divorce, and Remarriage
Discovering “Except for a Word of Fornication” in the Old and New Testaments
Sharon Henry - .DOC file
https://www.facebook.com/download/35...oOp3W9GEYSLWt-

The current post discussing Leslie McFall (1944-2015) is interesting.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1420...7053317579017/

While there might be some places where my emphasis would be a little different, overall this is likely the best paper on the issue today. For those who have no Facebook involvement, we can look for an alternative host for the ..doc file and any related material.
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  #269  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:42 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
:. You dismiss the exception clause based on faulty reasoning. :

But you are not calling those into question, only Matthew 19:9.
Well, we're discussing adultery vs. fornication in this context, are we not?

Is there another Jewish custom that only Matthew mentions that you'd like to discuss?
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  #270  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:46 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
:. You dismiss the exception clause based on faulty reasoning. :

But you are not calling those into question, only Matthew 19:9.
Technically, I'm not calling into question the exception clause in Matthew 19:9. I'm calling into question modern interpretations of the text that ignore the Jewish betrothal customs and present a general exception to all that never existed in the first place.
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