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  #81  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:37 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

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Originally Posted by Jason B View Post
1)Many oneness people would affirm that trinitarians are saved (or at least some, of course there is an epidemic of false conversion in the modern American church).

2)That said, the majority of oneness pentecostals would deny trinitarians are saved. Typically the more conservative OPs would have this view. But they tend to condemn everyone, including fellow oneness believers, who are not as conservative as themselves, labelling them charismatics, compromisers, worldly, etc.

3)Trinitarians are kind enough to return the favor, i.e. misrepresent what oneness people believe, label them all heretics, and condemn them to hell. I do admit to getting sick of trinitarians whining over the meany oneness people, when ya'll are mostly completely disingenuous about what oneness people believe. Then if one of your own even suggests oneness people are part of the body of Christ (such as Michael Brown recently), they get thrashed.

4)Your summary of oneness beliefs is inaccurate, as is your statement of trinitarian beliefs "one indivisible person". Most trinitarians would reject that language in favor of "one being who is thrre persons" (James White)

5)The argument is really a pandering to the flesh on both sides. While we ought to seek truth, we get overly concerned with judging the salvation if other individuals, then rapidly millions of others, based on our understanding of theology proper. I don't think this is wise nor God glorifying.

The debate is necessary and fascinating. But condemning others, who have repented of their sins and trusted in Christ, who believe in the one true God, in the Lord Jesus Christ, His full humanity and diety, and the regeneration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, seems to me, unnecessary.

It should be pointed out that both sides believes this, and this is a huge difference in having this conversation on a ineness board, vs a JW, Mormon, SDA, Christian Science, etc board.

1 John gives the tests of salvation, and both oneness and trinitarians meet that theological criteria.
Excellent post.
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  #82  
Old 03-23-2018, 07:40 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

Only God can judge the souls of men. Only God can choose what He will forgive and what He will not. Only God knows if one's faith is sincere or if it is mere religious sentiment.
Is Trinitarianism error? Yes.

Do all Trinitarians understand the depths of that error? No.

Are many Trinitarians of sincere faith? Yes.

Are all who attend Trinitarian churches truly "Trinitarian" in their understanding? No.

Do many Trinitarians have the Holy Spirit? Yes.
Because of these things, I don't feel comfortable claiming that I know for a fact that all in Trinitarian churches are going to Hell. Nor can I argue that all Trinitarians are saved. Ultimately, God is a sovereign God. And He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. And I certainly pray that God has mercy on those sincere souls found in every church. But I cannot claim that I know He will.

But I do know this....

Outside of obeying Acts 2:38 there is no assurance of salvation.

Last edited by Aquila; 03-23-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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  #83  
Old 03-23-2018, 09:27 AM
consapente89 consapente89 is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Only God can judge the souls of men. Only God can choose what He will forgive and what He will not. Only God knows if one's faith is sincere or if it is mere religious sentiment.
Is Trinitarianism error? Yes.

Do all Trinitarians understand the depths of that error? No.

Are many Trinitarians of sincere faith? Yes.

Are all who attend Trinitarian churches truly "Trinitarian" in their understanding? No.

Do many Trinitarians have the Holy Spirit? Yes.
Because of these things, I don't feel comfortable claiming that I know for a fact that all in Trinitarian churches are going to Hell. Nor can I argue that all Trinitarians are saved. Ultimately, God is a sovereign God. And He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. And I certainly pray that God has mercy on those sincere souls found in every church. But I cannot claim that I know He will.

But I do know this....

Outside of obeying Acts 2:38 there is no assurance of salvation.


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  #84  
Old 03-23-2018, 09:42 AM
Strict Baptist Strict Baptist is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

Data, data, data. From what I'm seeing here, I'd hate to be a baptized Oneness member of some so-called Apostolic church asking the identical question as to the eternal state of Trinitarians. Here I thought the charismatics' fights were bad...
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See the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession, 1693 (Keach's) Catechism as well as Gadsby's Catechism for the summation of my doctrinal beliefs; I do not maintain filiation and spiration. I emphatically hold to all Five Solas also the Scriptural Law of Worship.

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  #85  
Old 03-23-2018, 09:53 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

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Originally Posted by consapente89 View Post
Depends on what strait and narrow mean, I guess.
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  #86  
Old 03-23-2018, 09:59 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Depends on what strait and narrow mean, I guess.
Amen.

God would be justified in sending all who haven't fully obeyed Acts 2:38 to Hell. No doubt about that.

But for conscience sake, I'm not comfortable making that kind of judgment. I can affirm that there is no assurance outside of Acts 2:38. I then let it go. God will be a far more just and righteous judge than me.

Last edited by Aquila; 03-23-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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  #87  
Old 03-23-2018, 10:16 AM
Strict Baptist Strict Baptist is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

JasonB raised Michæl Brown. Brown is rather gullible bordering on foolish like most charismatics. He interviewed Benny Hinn without a peep of correction for Hinn's multifarious false doctrines or prophecies. Likewise, his friendship to Lordship Salvationist Dr James White is rather questionable since the Lordship position of justification is a papist one. Dr Brown does not speak for me, neither does he speak for all Trinitarians. I personally have wondered if he as well as White are not on the Jesuit payroll.

From what the Oneness posters here are saying seems to be "no" to "possibly upon renunciation of their respective Trinitarian doctrines" to a few saying "yes." This seems no different from what the Oneness advocates have said in former days. The misrepresentation of Trinitarianism almost seems to be the de jure mode from those who appear never to have studied it or go along with the crowd, or who seek to win over Trinitarians by questionable means (EW Bullinger was NOT sound at all as one of the hyper-dispensationalist fathers; he did not believe the ordinances were for the present).

I remind some I'm a former Trinitarian charismatic. I'm not alien to Pentecostalism, only to Oneness, and my hope in Christ was to understand the Oneness doctrines so I do not misrepresent them in print as a writer for fear the Maker would take me away.

It seems the Christian courtesy is mostly one-sided.
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Psalm 60-3, 100.4-5, 115.1-3, 130.4-5, 146 Authorized & Darby Versions. Host, Strict & Particular Baptist Radio

See the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession, 1693 (Keach's) Catechism as well as Gadsby's Catechism for the summation of my doctrinal beliefs; I do not maintain filiation and spiration. I emphatically hold to all Five Solas also the Scriptural Law of Worship.

Gmchristianbooks.com
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  #88  
Old 03-23-2018, 10:58 AM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist View Post
JasonB raised Michæl Brown. Brown is rather gullible bordering on foolish like most charismatics. He interviewed Benny Hinn without a peep of correction for Hinn's multifarious false doctrines or prophecies. Likewise, his friendship to Lordship Salvationist Dr James White is rather questionable since the Lordship position of justification is a papist one. Dr Brown does not speak for me, neither does he speak for all Trinitarians. I personally have wondered if he as well as White are not on the Jesuit payroll.

From what the Oneness posters here are saying seems to be "no" to "possibly upon renunciation of their respective Trinitarian doctrines" to a few saying "yes." This seems no different from what the Oneness advocates have said in former days. The misrepresentation of Trinitarianism almost seems to be the de jure mode from those who appear never to have studied it or go along with the crowd, or who seek to win over Trinitarians by questionable means (EW Bullinger was NOT sound at all as one of the hyper-dispensationalist fathers; he did not believe the ordinances were for the present).

I remind some I'm a former Trinitarian charismatic. I'm not alien to Pentecostalism, only to Oneness, and my hope in Christ was to understand the Oneness doctrines so I do not misrepresent them in print as a writer for fear the Maker would take me away.

It seems the Christian courtesy is mostly one-sided.
You completely missed the point. The point wasn't an endorsement of Michael Brown, but showing that the attitude of trinitarians towards oneness people.

Secondly, your trashing of "Lordship salvation" causes me to wonder if you truly believe in justification by faith, or a Zane Hodges/Charles Ryrie like semi-antiomianism.

Third, you complain about oneness misrepresentations of trinitarian dogma, but seem to have no qualms with misrepresenting oneness views. You do so claiming that oneness people have never studied trinitarianism. This is false, as most here we're trinitarians at some point. I myself attend a large Bible Church in the Dallas area for the last 2 years. I am well aware of the differences and the way each side speaks of the other, and presents the views of those they disagree with.

And finally, you speak of courtesy, but come to a oneness forum, with no oneness history, and trash their beliefs, then say, Christian courtesy is one way. Well are oneness people Christians or not? You seem to have started from the conclusion they are heretics to begin with, and now complain they aren't Christian enough.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards

"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship

"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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  #89  
Old 03-23-2018, 11:04 AM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

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Originally Posted by consapente89 View Post
I believe the answer is something like....

They're as lost as 2 boys kissin.
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  #90  
Old 03-23-2018, 11:09 AM
Strict Baptist Strict Baptist is offline
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Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?

Let me clarify my use of the term "subsistence" since Originalist did make a valid point. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession employs it, yet as reads below, I believe in incarnation Sonship and not filiation or spiration. None of the Waldensian creeds support eternal Sonship, and likewise the 1646 First London was absent of these doctrines as well as other early creeds from the Strict and Particular Baptists.

The 1689 Second London reads in Chapter II, Of God & the Holy Trinity --
Quote:
Paragraph 1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God;1 whose subsistence is in and of Himself,2 infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;3 a most pure spirit,4 invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;5 who is immutable,6 immense,7 eternal,8 incomprehensible, almighty,9 every way infinite, most holy,10 most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 for His own glory;12 most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 and withal most just and terrible in His judgments,14 hating all sin,15 and who will by no means clear the guilty.16
1 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Deut. 6:4
2 Jer. 10:10; Isa. 48:12
3 Exod. 3:14
4 John 4:24
5 1 Tim. 1:17; Deut. 4:15,16
6 Mal. 3:6
7 1 Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:23
8 Ps. 90:2
9 Gen. 17:1
10 Isa. 6:3
11 Ps. 115:3; Isa. 46:10
12 Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36
13 Exod. 34:6,7; Heb. 11:6
14 Neh. 9:32,33
15 Ps. 5:5,6
16 Exod. 34:7; Nahum 1:2,3
Paragraph 2. God, having all life,17 glory,18 goodness,19 blessedness, in and of Himself, is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them,20 but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,21 and He hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever Himself pleases;22 in His sight all things are open and manifest,23 His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent or uncertain;24 He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works,25 and in all His commands; to Him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship,26 service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever He is further pleased to require of them.
17 John 5:26
18 Ps. 148:13
19 Ps. 119:68
20 Job 22:2,3
21 Rom. 11:34-36
22 Dan. 4:25,34,35
23 Heb. 4:13
24 Ezek. 11:5; Acts 15:18
25 Ps. 145:17
26 Rev. 5:12-14
Paragraph 3. In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit,27 of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided:28 the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;29 the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son;30 all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on Him.
27 1 John 5:7; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14
28 Exod. 3:14; John 14:11; I Cor. 8:6
29 John 1:14,18
30 John 15:26; Gal. 4:6
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Psalm 60-3, 100.4-5, 115.1-3, 130.4-5, 146 Authorized & Darby Versions. Host, Strict & Particular Baptist Radio

See the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession, 1693 (Keach's) Catechism as well as Gadsby's Catechism for the summation of my doctrinal beliefs; I do not maintain filiation and spiration. I emphatically hold to all Five Solas also the Scriptural Law of Worship.

Gmchristianbooks.com
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