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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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Old 05-25-2007, 06:25 PM
Brother Strange
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Shortly Come to Pass and the Error of Preterism

SHORTLY COME TO PASS AND THE PETERIST

Revelation 1:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It should be known that all of the law and the prophets were understood in a natural sense which was before the first advent. The land, the ceremonies, the law, and tabernacle were all natural and naturally understood. However, since the Lord’s advent those things were lifted out of the natural sense into the spiritual sense and they must now be understood to have given testimony to things of the spirit, to a spiritual people, whose understanding must be made alive in the Spirit.

Heb. 8:2 states, “A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched and not man.”

To understand this spiritual tabernacle that the Lord has pitched and not Moses or the Levites, we must understand the many natural representatives depicted in the natural tabernacle, in a natural land, among a natural people, in a natural land.

According to I Cor. 10:11, these things were ensamples to us as admonitions upon whom the ends of the world have come. In other words, all of these natural things are types and shadows in the natural of the real substance, which is spiritual.

We can see why we must be made spiritual. We must forsake the carnal mind with all of its carnal understandings and interpretations of those things that are spiritual. The natural mind is enmity with God, is not subject to the (spiritual) law of God and neither indeed can be. The new birth gives us a spiritual mind to perceive, but we must use it.

The truth is, the word "shortly come to pass" has nothing to do with time or place at all, as we shall see. Neither do the words, “this generation.”

It is well known that the Preterist gang plays heavily on the word, “shortly,” from Rev. 1:1, restricting it to a natural sense in an attempt to make us believe that the events of the destruction of Jerusalem and the events surrounding 70 AD in Jerusalem is pertinent to the use of the word. This cannot be the case.

Not only is the coming of the Roman Armies, Nero, destruction of the temple, on and on, not spelled out in the book of Revelation by any mention of Titus, 70 AD and the destruction of the old natural city, but the use of the Word “shortly” has no relation to it either.

Let not any man tell you just exactly what John understood even without John himself explaining what he understood. Presumptions men will do it. I can hardly understand how it is that anyone can be so arrogant that they think that they can be a mind reader of a man who has been dead for almost 2000 years. But the preterist would have us to believe that John understood it exactly like they understand it. How do you spell, “This is a hoot?”

So, let us go back to the scripture reference above and try to understand what is meant by the words, “shortly come to pass,” in Revelation 1:1.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Now if you are a mind to think naturally, you would naturally think that this was obviously something that was going to take place almost immediately. Therefore, they go to great extent to try (but in vain) to prove that the book of Revelation was written before 70 AD and that the events surrounding that date, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the testimony of Josephus, on and on, was the fulfillment of the book of Revelation. It is not. Let us look at the Greek word “en” translated in some places into our English word, “Shortly.”

"a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between Strong's 1519 and 1537)

So we immediately see that the word does not necessarily mean that it is concurrent in time to any given event, nor is it necessarily subsequent in time to any prophecy. But, we shall see that the use of the word denotes a state or a condition of affairs, which in this case has to do with the state of spiritual affairs of the church to whom the letter was written…all of it from Rev. 1 to Rev. 22.

In fact, Jesus commenced his remarks to the seven churches (which are all churches in the complex) addressing the state of affairs within each church. He spelled out in detail what each of their state was and in some cases, they were not even aware of their condiiton...Laiodicea being a prime example. Nevertheless, he also addressed what it would take to reform their state of affairs to meet the approval of the Lord.

The word is found in many, many places throughout the new testament and has no reference to time at all. Matthew 1:18 tells us that Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost. The term, “with child” comes from the same Greek word found in Rev. 1:1 which is interpreted in English as “shortly.” It denotes a state of affairs with Mary. In this case, she is in a state of pregnancy.

But, if we turn to Revelation 22:6, we find the word used again:

And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

These words are spoken after the return of Jesus, the judgment and after the beast, the dragon and the false prophet were cast into hell. If you are going to implicate the word “shortly” in Rev. 1:1 as an event that must be subsequently done shortly, then it follows by the usage of the same word that the return of Jesus, judgment and the casting into hell of the beast, the dragon and the false prophet must also be done “shortly” in subsequent events.

But, Brother Blume does not believe that Jesus has returned to the earth,, nor all these event have happened, even though it is now 2000 years later.. Therefore, it follows that if you use the word in Rev. 1:1 to prove a point, the same point is refuted in Rev. 22:6.

Let us look at one more place where the word is used in Romans 16:20:

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Here again a condition of state is illustrated. This is not speaking naturally. It is speaking of an elevation of a spiritual condition or state of affairs among the saints. This is not speaking of a few days from then. It is not speaking of a time period or even a place. This is to be spiritually understood as is Rev. 1:1 and Rev. 22:6 by the use of the word, “shortly.”

Now this is not to say that in every instance when the English word “shortly” is used that it means a condition or state of affairs. Paul asked Timothy to come to him shortly. That had to do with the instance of time. Time was involved.

The entire weight of Preterism rests upon the misunderstanding of the word "shortly" to mean an almost instant fulfillment of their theories and ideas of Revelation, and that having to do with the immediate destruction of Jerusalem and all of which that involved. This is also true of the misunderstanding of the words, “this generation.” But, it is simply not in the bible, nor is there any comparisons of scripture from Genesis to Revelation that will support those ideas.

The whole weight of Preterism rests upon misunderstood words, twisted to fit thier doctrine of the PAST.
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Old 05-25-2007, 06:38 PM
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Revelationist Revelationist is offline
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How do you explain away the third verse?

Rev 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

"For the time is at hand" is the same language that John the Baptist used to anounce the soon coming of Christ.

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

In verse seven John says that those that pierced him would see him when he come in what he saw to bring judgement.

Rev 11:1


Revelation 11
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
KJV

The temple was evidently still standing when John seen his Revelation.

Rev 17:10
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
KJV

Five kings had already fallen when John received his Revelation. One was on the throne, and there was one more to come and he would be only a short time.

Yes, I natually would assume the time was short.
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Old 05-25-2007, 06:54 PM
Brother Strange
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelationist View Post
How do you explain away the third verse?

Rev 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

"For the time is at hand" is the same language that John the Baptist used to anounce the soon coming of Christ.
Thank you for asking.

I understand that you are a "Full Preterist" which is in conflict with the doctrine of Bro. Blume. So, I will answer with him in mind as well.

"...for the time is at hand is in relation to what follows in the 2nd and 3rd chapters as Jesus is talking to the seven churches concerning their state of affairs. He is talking to them concerning repentance and the consequences of NOT repenting. In some cases, where no repentance is not forthcoming he will come to take the candlestick from their midst. The consequence of repenting or not repenting is a condition or a state of affairs that is present to and visited (at hand) upon each according to what they do with the words of Jesus to each church. It is AT THEIR HAND, individually as they so choose.

Quote:
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

In verse seven John says that those that pierced him would see him when he come in what he saw to bring judgement.
You might would say that Jesus came at Pentecost. In a sense, you would be right in as much as the Holy Ghost is Christ in you. Those that pierced Jesus did not see it because they did not believe it. Some say that that everyone saw the coming of Jesus in 70AD. This could not be the understanding either, since many of those that pierced him were no doubt already dead by 70AD, nor did all the kindred of the earth see him then either. But he shall be seen by all who have pierced him by rejecting him as will all the kindred of the earth when Jesus returns.

Rev 11:1


Quote:
Revelation 11
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
KJV

The temple was evidently still standing when John seen his Revelation.
No.

When John wrote Revelation, it would be aply said, "Ye are the temple of God..."

Quote:
Rev 17:10
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
KJV

Five kings had already fallen when John received his Revelation. One was on the throne, and there was one more to come and he would be only a short time.

Yes, I natually would assume the time was short.
And you would be mistaken if you were to put this in a natural sense not fully understanding what KINGS are, what is fallen and what is yet to come in the context of a short space.

More on Rev. 17:10 later. It will take quite a bit of typing to fully explain it.
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:09 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Finally ... some action ....
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:10 PM
Brother Strange
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Finally ... some action ....
Dan,

When you are around, there is always plenty.
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:15 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Well ... I highly respect your minds ... Brother Blume, yourself ... and I'm sure Revelationist ... has something to contribute ....

This should be very interesting ....

I will be part of the peanut gallery in this one .... being that my view on end time prophecy is LIVE FOR JESUS AND BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING ... don't know what to call it yet ... any suggestions?
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:18 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Well ... I highly respect your minds ... Brother Blume, yourself ... and I'm sure Revelationist ... has something to contribute ....

This should be very interesting ....

I will be part of the peanut gallery in this one .... being that my view on end time prophecy is LIVE FOR JESUS AND BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING ... don't know what to call it yet ... any suggestions?
the Jellyfish doctrine!
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:20 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
the Jellyfish doctrine!
Since when is living for Jesus ... spineless ... .... it's better than the Jesus appeared in the clouds in 70 AD ... farce.
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:21 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Since when is living for Jesus ... spineless ... .... it's better than the Jesus appeared in the clouds in 70 AD ... farce.
how about....


Pan Trib: what is really cooking?
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:21 PM
Brother Strange
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Well ... I highly respect your minds ... Brother Blume, yourself ... and I'm sure Revelationist ... has something to contribute ....

This should be very interesting ....

I will be part of the peanut gallery in this one .... being that my view on end time prophecy is LIVE FOR JESUS AND BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING ... don't know what to call it yet ... any suggestions?
Yes. I have at least one.

Adopt a spiritual undertanding of the Word by researching the spiritual meaning. By preparing yourself in the SPIRIT, understanding and hearing what the SPIRIT is saying to the churches rather than some natural theory of old Jerusalem, you will be better equipped to LIVE FOR JESUS AND BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING.

Taking Josephus' account of what happened to old Jerusalem and then discount Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13, consigning it to the dusty archives of the past, as some are doing, will not help you prepare.
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