Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

If standards are a boundary a fence, then if you remove someone's fence what are you doing? That's their landmark is it not? Of course everyone knows what the passage meant, but he was only using a illustration of that principal. He talked about a lot more, but we have only dealt with a 15 second remark he made about facial hair. Was the whole sermon about that no. And it's Deuteronomy 27:17 btw. He just made some statements in there about standards and I thought it was fitting for this forum, so I titled it that way. That is the name of the sermon though, "Thy Neighbor's Landmark".

That's a gigantic "If" to start with, don't you think?

Standards are not boundaries or fences the same way actual boundaries and fences are, for physical property on land. They ought not be compared as such.

Secondly, the boundaries and fences that are determined by landmarks such as Deuteronomy 27:17 (thanks for the correction, there!) describes or delineates the ownership of actual property. So, if you're going to argue that Deuteronomy 27:17 can be used as a way to teach standards, and of having no right to speak against or encourage others to reject the standards being taught to them by a pastor or church leadership, you are in essence making a de facto claim that the pastor or church leadership owns the saints as actual property, which is why people on this forum have been crying foul, the whole time, thus proving their point.

This is why trying to use Deuteronomy 27:17 in such a way is such a bad idea. One, it's not what the passage is about. Two, to try and make it be about what you and the preacher in the video are making it about, makes the church look like the property of someone other than Jesus Christ.

As far as some 15 second remark on facial hair, since I have not listened to the video, I don't know anything about it, but why are you giving MichaeltheDisciple grief as if the preacher doesn't talk about facial hair, just because Michael didn't hear it, doesn't it mean it's not there, as this quote of yours proves.

In fact, you might instead want to argue that Michael demonstrated keen discernment in predicting that the preacher has something to say about facial hair without actually having heard the man say anything about it.

Therefore, Mike's comments were spot on, were they not?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, a Bible revival?

If Jesus preached, David played his harp and the Apostle Paul took up the offering, you still wouldn't listen. You guys who pound the table with your so called Bible purity are what makes Atheists smile. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

*Exactly! The very reason I don't usually spend a lot of time on here. Like Thomas Jefferson they compile their own "Bible" - explaining away the portions they don't like .

[Michael The Disciple]

During the Hippy Generation of the 50’s and 60’s, beards sprouted on those who rebelled against society. It became their symbol. Many of that culture were draft dodgers and some even moved to Canada. A spirit of rebellion and non-conformity was connected to the beard wearing. New male converts for years have shown visible evidence of their conversion, by shaving off their facial hair when they got into an Apostolic church.

This is the reason I have been commenting in the thread. All through the other thread by Aquila we asked WHY beards had been banned. The closest thing we got to an answer was the shave only Preachers didn't like "the look".

But here we have what we all knew all along they believe.

If you wear a beard you have a demonic spirit. Not only that but 1 of the chosen plainly says in Apostolic Churches for a man to shave IS A SIGN HE IS TRULY SAVED!

So yes its what we knew from the beginning. They dont like beards because they believe if you have one your not saved. Yet we went through 70 pages of Aquiilas thread about whether it is a sin and never once would they own their doctrine.

When I accepted Oneness truth this kind of thing is not what I signed up for. Making up doctrine like pulling rabbits out of a hat.

[Amanah]

I'm going to insert some opinions here, just because I feel like it.

I think on AFF we have some of the best scholars, teachers, and preachers on the planet.

I don't particularly care for this guys preaching style, it seems slightly affectatous to me.

I like Bro Esaias preaching style, it's more down to earth.

I don't think we have bible for no beards, and we are following the elders out of respect.

having said all this, I don't think it's wise to ........ to hell the churches that have the beard standard and cause doubt and confusion among the people attending these churches who are obeying Acts 2:38 salvation.

I feel very uncomfortable and like alarms are going off in my head when I see some of the vitriol spewed against those who have the beard standard.

[1ofthechosen]

[QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;1526195]If you wear a beard you have a demonic spirit. Not only that but 1 of the chosen plainly says in Apostolic Churches for a man to shave IS A SIGN HE IS TRULY SAVED!/QUOTE]

This is a total misrepresentation, along with half you said. I never said that. You have been arguing about the beards this whole time. Saying someone thinks your demonic because of it and all this other stuff. No one ever said that, you did. Standards do not save you or make you lost, but they are a fence and a safety net. You are going overboard over nothing, is all I can say. So I'll say it one more time, find you a church where it is not preached and go there. But don't go somewhere where it is preached and try to change it, that makes no sense.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

So you never even heard him mention beards specifically and have been arguing ever since? Well, I guess it was a "if the shoe fits then wear it situation." If that's the first thought in your mind, you must have personal convictions you are not following. All this makes no sense, otherwise.

I went back and painstakingly listened to more so I could hear for myself what he did specifically say. It was short true. But consider:

He uses their children as an example of trying to get them to give up their "conviction" about "facial hair".

Then he wails and moans about moving a neighbors landmark. He gives no scripture to defend his landmark. Yet he expects his children to follow the traditions of men without question.

Several times he crys out that God is angry with those who dont follow their commands and how they are cursed!

Yet if we point out that JESUS SET A LANDMARK.....ACCORDING TO THEIR REASONING... that he is for beards and has nothing against them, somehow WE have a demonic spirit and we are unsaved!

So its clear that the principal he is trying to use actually works AGAINST HIM.

The shave only Preachers have moved the landmark Jesus set up. So he is actually preaching against his self and all those who moved the Lords landmark.

And to make matters worse again we ask the question how many thousands or maybe far more of good men have they shut out of Oneness Pentecostal Churches with this pathetic tradition?

And then they say they are all going to Hell for trillions and trillions of years of torment because they dont attend a Oneness Pentecostal Church!

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Secondly, the boundaries and fences that are determined by landmarks such as Deuteronomy 27:17 (thanks for the correction, there!) describes or delineates the ownership of actual property. So, if you're going to argue that Deuteronomy 27:17 can be used as a way to teach standards, and of having no right to speak against or encourage others to reject the standards being taught to them by a pastor or church leadership, you are in essence making a de facto claim that the pastor or church leadership owns the saints as actual property, which is why people on this forum have been crying foul, the whole time, thus proving their point.

So you don't believe that standards are a fence and a safety net set up? That above is craziness! No one was saying anything besides some people who want a beard. Please listen to the tape, because it wasn't about beards. It was about people have made stands in the past for certain things, and for you to go and try to move that is not right. A lot of men died for us to have the truth, and were rejected and despised for taking a stand. Like I see people are doing here. The only thing is I'm not backing up, but I never said anyone to anybody I only made a title, and posted a video.

Other people had certain feelings because apparently God must be dealing with them in that area, Right now. No one is telling anyone to follow man, and not Jesus. Jeremiah 3:15-16 "I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. [16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more."
This is Jesus saying this is it not? If you have a God appointed Pastor in your life, you should obey him. Not because of him, but because of your love toward Jesus.

People have it all twisted when you go to Romans 13:1-7 do you think that's just about government officials? I know the context it is, but how much more the government He set up in His church? There is a principal there in the Word of God.

I think the best thing to ask is do you go.to church? Are you under leadership? Will you answer that?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I went back and painstakingly listened to more so I could hear for myself what he did specifically say. It was short true. But consider:

He uses their children as an example of trying to get them to give up their "conviction" about "facial hair".

Then he wails and moans about moving a neighbors landmark. He gives no scripture to defend his landmark. Yet he expects his children to follow the traditions of men without question.

Several times he crys out that God is angry with those who dont follow their commands and how they are cursed!

Yet if we point out that JESUS SET A LANDMARK.....ACCORDING TO THEIR REASONING... that he is for beards and has nothing against them, somehow WE have a demonic spirit and we are unsaved!

So its clear that the principal he is trying to use actually works AGAINST HIM.

The shave only Preachers have moved the landmark Jesus set up. So he is actually preaching against his self and all those who moved the Lords landmark.

And to make matters worse again we ask the question how many thousands or maybe far more of good men have they shut out of Oneness Pentecostal Churches with this pathetic tradition?

And then they say they are all going to Hell for trillions and trillions of years of torment because they dont attend a Oneness Pentecostal Church!

Do you remember what happened in Acts 15:1-32? Are you still using that same old argument?

Let me ask you Michael are you subjected to leadership? Do you go to church? That's all I want to know.

[Michael The Disciple]

This is a total misrepresentation, along with half you said. I never said that. You have been arguing about the beards this whole time. Saying someone thinks your demonic because of it and all this other stuff. No one ever said that, you did.

Oh then who wrote these words?

During the Hippy Generation of the 50’s and 60’s, beards sprouted on those who rebelled against society. It became their symbol. Many of that culture were draft dodgers and some even moved to Canada. A spirit of rebellion and non-conformity was connected to the beard wearing. New male converts for years have shown visible evidence of their conversion, by shaving off their facial hair when they got into an Apostolic church.

Note the bold.

A spirit of rebellion.
Men show evidence of their conversion by shaving when they go to an Apostolic Church.

Where is the misrepresentation?

But Brother I realize God has done great things in your life through your Church. He has for many in the shave only Churches. Not because of some of their doctrine but in spite of it. Because they are personally exercising faith toward him.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

. This is a total misrepresentation, along with half you said. I never said that. You have been arguing about the beards this whole time. Saying someone thinks your demonic because of it and all this other stuff. No one ever said that, you did.
Oh then who wrote these words?

Quote:
During the Hippy Generation of the 50’s and 60’s, beards sprouted on those who rebelled against society. It became their symbol. Many of that culture were draft dodgers and some even moved to Canada. A spirit of rebellion and non-conformity was connected to the beard wearing. New male converts for years have shown visible evidence of their conversion, by shaving off their facial hair when they got into an Apostolic church.
Note the bold.
.

That was a quote from Martin Ballestero I didn't say that. I told you that and you know that. Why are you trying to twist my words?
Matter of fact its funny how you went above and around all the real points I posted it to make.

So I'll just post it again for the record why I did in bold! "Did they have facial hair in the early days of Pentecostal outpouring in the 1900’s? Yes. Early Pentecostal pioneers such as Bro. Seymour and Bishop Haywood wore facial hair. We’ve seen the pictures.

However, in early Pentecost, especially in the white churches, there was a marked absence of beards. The beards seemed to disappear.

Many Hispanic and black men feel that wearing a mustache is symbolic of masculinity. So automatically the cultural thing is throw down like an non-debatable subject. Of course that debate ignores the church’s culture.

During the Hippy Generation of the 50’s and 60’s, beards sprouted on those who rebelled against society. It became their symbol. Many of that culture were draft dodgers and some even moved to Canada. A spirit of rebellion and non-conformity was connected to the beard wearing.

New male converts for years have shown visible evidence of their conversion, by shaving off their facial hair when they got into an Apostolic church. The Pentecostal scene was one of clean-shaven men for over 50 years.

Now, after a half a century or so of no facial hair on men in mainstream Pentecost, It has started appearing again. Why? What changed in their minds and why did it change?"

So I since we've been over this same quote 3 times in this thread, why do you keep pulling out stuff misrepresenting me? You are doing that on purpose! I can't say I agree with all that, but all in the bold I do agree with, because it's the truth. I just wasn't going to twist his quote and put what I agree with, and take out what I don't. But I see you don't have the same type of integrity.