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  #91  
Old 09-08-2008, 11:13 AM
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Bump for Jeremy ...
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  #92  
Old 09-08-2008, 11:57 AM
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

In Barna's/Viola's latest book Pagan Christianity, they have a chapter on Baptism/Communion and how far we are removed in practice and beliefs regarding conversion/baptism.

I think they tackle the whole sinner's prayer thing by stating and to my satisfaction that in the NT Culture/Practice that one was converted by being baptized and at baptism only then was one considered converted. That faith/repentance/conversion/baptism were son intertwined you couldn't seperate them.
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  #93  
Old 09-08-2008, 09:37 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Of course it can ... and it happens all the time .... with words w/ multiple meanings ... i.e. "jam", "set", etc.

but the writers did not express this separation contextually .... as the word does not the multiple distinct meanings some try to force into it.

Trying to skirt around this issue .... really hurts any intellectual honesty in the broader scope of a soteriological debate.
Dan, attempting to investigate all aspects of what is meant by aphesis and why the KJV translators chose to use remission and forgiveness in different places is not being "intellecturally dishonest".

Have you proved there is no contextual distinction found in the use of these words? I don't see much difference but I haven't truly examined closely why the words, remission and forgiveness, are used in different places. Are the really interchangable?

From my understanding they are interchangable, but I protest your use of the accusation of dishonesty against those who might consider that there may be a difference. I have a feeling the Biblical definition of divine forgiveness and our common definition of forgiveness are very different. As humans we cannot remove sin. God can.

Prov 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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  #94  
Old 09-08-2008, 09:48 PM
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Could a boy born to Israelite parents be considered part of the covenant of Abraham without being circumcised?

Can one be a partaker of the new covenant without having the circumcision of the heart?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
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  #95  
Old 09-09-2008, 07:43 AM
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Could a boy born to Israelite parents be considered part of the covenant of Abraham without being circumcised?

Can one be a partaker of the new covenant without having the circumcision of the heart?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
It depends when this circumcison takes place ... your prooftext in no way indicates either ....

and circumcision was never seen as a cause for salvation or done to be Jewish but rather a sign/witness of a covenant.
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  #96  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:50 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

If NT baptism is a fulfillment of OT circumcision (notice I said "if") then go to Romans 3 and 4 and substitute "baptism" for "circumcision"

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the baptized by faith, and unbaptized through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the baptized only, or upon the unbaptized also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in baptism, or in unbaptism? Not in baptism, but in baptism.
11And he received the sign of baptism, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being unbaptized: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not baptized; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of baptism to them who are not of the baptism only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet unbapgtized.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
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  #97  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:05 AM
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

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  #98  
Old 11-29-2017, 01:25 AM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

His NAME is Jesus!

IT'S BACK TO BASICS, FOLKS

Jesus: "He that believes AND is baptized SHALL BE saved." We can see the promise
[to be saved] are in the words: "shall be". Can a person truly believe and reject the
waters of baptism? or is baptism made void through unbelief?

Peter: "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins, and you SHALL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Once more, the promise [of salvation] is found in the words, "shall receive".

We received mercy, which holds back God's righteous judgment, when Jesus
cried out, "Father FORGIVE them..." Had he not cried out for our forgiveness, I
have no doubt that we would all have died in our sins, even as those who died
during the flood in Noah's day. But God has shown us mercy, and "...the times
of this ignorance God WINKED at; but now commands all men every where to
repent..."
By "winking", God in effect turned his face away from our sin: had God
beheld our sin, then his righteousness would have demanded judgment; and his
judgment, our death!

God has shown us mercy to bring us to receive the free gift of GRACE, which is
his Holy Spirit. He has freely imparted of HIMSELF, that we may attain eternal
life with him!

Or have we forgotten another promise: "Whosoever calls upon the NAME of the
Lord SHALL BE saved."


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