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  #101  
Old 10-31-2022, 07:19 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by Barb View Post
I found your post interesting; however, this is what I found a couple of years ago re eis that I kept on file. Nothing has been copied here other than the sources cited; all other comments are my own…

The Greek word eis is a preposition that looks forward to an object. There are those who take eis and teach that in English, in addition to for it can also mean because of, but the problem with that is, I have not been able to find one Greek scholar who translates eis any other way than for the remission of sins...

“The authorities, all of them, bear witness to the fact that eis never looks backward but always forward; that is, it is never rendered ‘because of’ or on ‘account of’ in all the New Testament, and it never had that meaning in any New Testament passage-not one” (Foy E. Wallace Jr., Bullwarks of the Faith, Vol. 2; pg. 50; Public Domain.).

“‘Eis aphesin hamartion,’ to obtain the remission of sins” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon. Public Domain).

“The truth will never suffer by giving to ‘eis’ it’s true significance. When the Campbellites translate ‘in order to’ in Acts 2:38, they translate correctly. ‘In order to declare’ or ‘symbolize’ would be a monstrous translation of ‘eis.’” (J.W. Wilmarth, Baptist scholar. Public Domain).

“I would say the preposition ‘eis’ is to be translated ‘unto,’ that is, ‘in order to secure.’ The preposition indicates the remission of sins is the end to be aimed at in the actions expressed by the predicates ‘repent & be baptized.’” (William R. Harper, President of Chicago University Baptist. Public Domain).


It is worth noting that the above references were made by men who were not Apostolic in doctrine, yet understood the meaning of the Greek word.

To conclude, the word eis can be found 1,750 times in Scripture, and it is never translated because of, certainly not in the Greek NT or any Greek lexicon that I have found.

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Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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  #102  
Old 11-01-2022, 07:11 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Name, please.
https://youtu.be/EF7nDDHU0bw

It starts at the 1 hour and 59 minute mark, and goes for about 5 minutes.
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  #103  
Old 11-01-2022, 07:34 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
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Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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  #104  
Old 11-01-2022, 09:09 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I believe that is referring to a paraphrase he did in which he substituted condonare for what he had previously written as remittere (as also the Vulgate). But in another place he uses remittere (I believe in Luke).
It looks like the issue is using the English remit in his paraphrase, in Luke and perhaps Matthew (and that paraphrase may have a similar note).

===========================

Paraphrase on the Gospel According to Luke (2016)
Jane E. Phillips
https://books.google.com/books?id=ORb8CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA228

Having said all this to the Pharisee, the Lord turned to the woman and said, 'Your sins are remitted.' She had not made any prayer, she had not confessed anything in words, but she did confess more clearly in her actions, she did pray more effectively with her tears. This is the confession most welcome to Christ. By prayers of this kind is he most easily moved to mercy. Happy are the tears, happy the expenditure on perfume, happy the kisses that wrest these words from Jesus: 'Your sins are remitted.' For he does not forgive some and retain others but forgives them all at once, imputing nothing at all of a former life to the sincere penitent.65

65 'Forgive [sin]' in the paraphrase on verses 42-9 is either condonare or remittere (the latter here translated 'remit'). The Vulgate Gospel text had used donate for the forgiveness of loans in verses 42-3 and then remittere and dimittere once each in verse 47, followed by remittere when Jesus addresses the woman in verse 48 and when the other guests question his action in verse 49. Remittere appears once more in the paraphrase on verse 50, where it means 'send,' at 'send her home.' For Erasmus' dissatisfaction with traditional ecclesiastical preference for dimittere, cf chapter 6 n40.

===========================

As for the controversy with John Batmanson on this issue, Thomas More siding with Erasmus, that will be in Erasmus and his Catholic Critics, p. 118-119, and might give more insight as to how the English text remit was controversial. In google books, it is available only in snippet mode. It is available in libraries, and a good project would be to take a picture of the two pages.

Since remit also means to "send back", which is not in forgive, I think there is a wider semantic range to remit, in the 1500s to today. When you send something back, it is like it never happened.

And I may have to do some more study, including this thread.
So far I do not agree with any idea that the words are identical synonyms.

===========================

Last edited by Steven Avery; 11-01-2022 at 09:23 AM.
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  #105  
Old 11-01-2022, 01:32 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
It looks like the issue is using the English remit in his paraphrase, in Luke and perhaps Matthew (and that paraphrase may have a similar note).

===========================

Paraphrase on the Gospel According to Luke (2016)
Jane E. Phillips
https://books.google.com/books?id=ORb8CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA228

Having said all this to the Pharisee, the Lord turned to the woman and said, 'Your sins are remitted.' She had not made any prayer, she had not confessed anything in words, but she did confess more clearly in her actions, she did pray more effectively with her tears. This is the confession most welcome to Christ. By prayers of this kind is he most easily moved to mercy. Happy are the tears, happy the expenditure on perfume, happy the kisses that wrest these words from Jesus: 'Your sins are remitted.' For he does not forgive some and retain others but forgives them all at once, imputing nothing at all of a former life to the sincere penitent.65

65 'Forgive [sin]' in the paraphrase on verses 42-9 is either condonare or remittere (the latter here translated 'remit'). The Vulgate Gospel text had used donate for the forgiveness of loans in verses 42-3 and then remittere and dimittere once each in verse 47, followed by remittere when Jesus addresses the woman in verse 48 and when the other guests question his action in verse 49. Remittere appears once more in the paraphrase on verse 50, where it means 'send,' at 'send her home.' For Erasmus' dissatisfaction with traditional ecclesiastical preference for dimittere, cf chapter 6 n40.

===========================

As for the controversy with John Batmanson on this issue, Thomas More siding with Erasmus, that will be in Erasmus and his Catholic Critics, p. 118-119, and might give more insight as to how the English text remit was controversial. In google books, it is available only in snippet mode. It is available in libraries, and a good project would be to take a picture of the two pages.

Since remit also means to "send back", which is not in forgive, I think there is a wider semantic range to remit, in the 1500s to today. When you send something back, it is like it never happened.

And I may have to do some more study, including this thread.
So far I do not agree with any idea that the words are identical synonyms.

===========================
Well, I'm not sure any synonyms are "identical" 100%. There is a reason for the existence of different words. But both remission and forgiveness are suitable translations of the Greek aphesis. Remission because it is a release or sending back of a debt, and forgiveness because to remit a debt is to forgive it. So I'm not seeing any reason to think that remission and forgiveness aren't the same thing being looked at from slightly different perspectives. There certainly is no basis for the UPC (and copycat ALJC) idea that forgiveness occurs as a wholly separate event distinct from remission.
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  #106  
Old 11-01-2022, 02:49 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Well, I'm not sure any synonyms are "identical" 100%. There is a reason for the existence of different words. But both remission and forgiveness are suitable translations of the Greek aphesis. Remission because it is a release or sending back of a debt, and forgiveness because to remit a debt is to forgive it. So I'm not seeing any reason to think that remission and forgiveness aren't the same thing being looked at from slightly different perspectives. There certainly is no basis for the UPC (and copycat ALJC) idea that forgiveness occurs as a wholly separate event distinct from remission.
Agree with you on this.

My first pastor taught that forgiveness and remission were not the same- his reasoning for people receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism.

By taught, I mean preached.
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  #107  
Old 11-01-2022, 08:02 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
There certainly is no basis for the UPC (and copycat ALJC) idea that forgiveness occurs as a wholly separate event distinct from remission.
Nothing about this in this thread. I did not check the earlier one.
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  #108  
Old 11-02-2022, 12:25 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Nothing about this in this thread. I did not check the earlier one.
The idea was mentioned by the thread starter on page 1, and GoodSamaritan seemed to be arguing in favor of that position (although it's hard for me to tell exactly what his position is).

Current ALJC Articles of Faith:

"Repentance and Remission of Sin
The only grounds upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for his sins that he has committed. A broken and contrite heart He will not despise (Psalm 51:17). John preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and before His ascension commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name, beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). Peter fulfilled this command on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38)."

UPCI Articles of Faith:
"REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION
Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word “repentance” comes from several Greek words which mean, change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, to transform, etc.

Jesus said, -except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” - http://www.preachingpoints.com/2009/...international/

The UPCI main official website no longer has their Articles of Faith for some reason. And it seems the ALJC has updated their Articles. I remember they used to read almost verbatim the same way the UPCI's did.

Granted, the UPCI could be read in such a way as to accommodate both views (the whole point of the issue during the 1945 Merger), but consider the official PAJC statement which does not conjoin forgiveness with repentance, prefers the term remission, and definitely conjoins remission with baptism (see here and scroll down for link to pdf ---> https://www.pajci.org/about-us ).
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  #109  
Old 11-02-2022, 06:27 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The idea was mentioned by the thread starter on page 1, and GoodSamaritan seemed to be arguing in favor of that position (although it's hard for me to tell exactly what his position is).

Current ALJC Articles of Faith:

"Repentance and Remission of Sin
The only grounds upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for his sins that he has committed. A broken and contrite heart He will not despise (Psalm 51:17). John preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and before His ascension commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name, beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). Peter fulfilled this command on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38)."

UPCI Articles of Faith:
"REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION
Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word “repentance” comes from several Greek words which mean, change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, to transform, etc.

Jesus said, -except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” - http://www.preachingpoints.com/2009/...international/

The UPCI main official website no longer has their Articles of Faith for some reason. And it seems the ALJC has updated their Articles. I remember they used to read almost verbatim the same way the UPCI's did.

Granted, the UPCI could be read in such a way as to accommodate both views (the whole point of the issue during the 1945 Merger), but consider the official PAJC statement which does not conjoin forgiveness with repentance, prefers the term remission, and definitely conjoins remission with baptism (see here and scroll down for link to pdf ---> https://www.pajci.org/about-us ).
I never differentiated forgiveness/remission on this thread. My view is that you receive forgiveness/remission the moment you truly repent and put your faith in Jesus. Baptism is a command we must follow, but we don’t manipulate the grace of God by doing so. Repentance is a matter of the heart, and forgiveness is a matter of God. We can become like the Pharisees by making salvation by our doctrine rather than salvation by Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn’t save me(but God does), but if I live for God,I will follow his commands to be baptized (as well as all the others). If I don’t consent to baptism then I am refusing to serve Him by being disobedient to his Word.

I may have deviated from the threads question, but I haven’t said anything to make you think that forgiveness and remission are 2 different things. In the English yes, in the Greek No. I have agreed all through this this thread that the same Greek word is used for forgiveness/remission.
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  #110  
Old 11-02-2022, 12:19 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission? - 1500s controversy

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I never differentiated forgiveness/remission on this thread. My view is that you receive forgiveness/remission the moment you truly repent and put your faith in Jesus. Baptism is a command we must follow, but we don’t manipulate the grace of God by doing so. Repentance is a matter of the heart, and forgiveness is a matter of God. We can become like the Pharisees by making salvation by our doctrine rather than salvation by Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn’t save me(but God does), but if I live for God,I will follow his commands to be baptized (as well as all the others). If I don’t consent to baptism then I am refusing to serve Him by being disobedient to his Word.

I may have deviated from the threads question, but I haven’t said anything to make you think that forgiveness and remission are 2 different things. In the English yes, in the Greek No. I have agreed all through this this thread that the same Greek word is used for forgiveness/remission.
Thanks for the clarification.
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