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  #51  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:25 PM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
I see the creative power of the Logos. But you are saying you believe in a actual pre existant divine son? I agree with somethings you said, but on this I don't. I can see that God can be visible and invisible, but the title of son I can't see until the fullness of time came.
The title "son of God" is applied to Jesus because He was begotten by a miracle of the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:35), and also because of His role as Messiah and heir to the throne of David (Psalm 2:7). So a "pre existent son" doesn't really make sense.

But He who is the Son, pre existed as the Word (which was God, and later became flesh).

Quote:
I will even go with what Michael said about God being visible and invisible, but the Son is a title of relationship. Which I don't see Him being born at any point, until Bethelehams manger. Nor begotten.
I don't know brother Michael claims a begotten Son prior to Bethlehem, but rather the Word as the manifest presence of God which became flesh as the Son? Perhaps he can clarify?
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  #52  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:31 PM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking of Wisdom though, which is spoken forth of feminine qualities.

Matter of fact in the Sepatugint what word is used for wisdom in Proverbs 8:1? Just wondering?
What does 1 Corinthians 1:24 say?
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  #53  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:42 PM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking of Wisdom though, which is spoken forth of feminine qualities.

Matter of fact in the Sepatugint what word is used for wisdom in Proverbs 8:1? Just wondering?
Eloah is one of Gods titles as in Isaiah 44:8 They say in Hebrew it is feminine. Yet Eloah is identified as Christ {the rock} in the same verse. The second time the word God appears in the verse it should actually be "rock". The first time God means "Eloah".

Also Jesus identifies HIMSELF as the "wisdom".

Luke 11:49

49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

Matt 23:34

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Paul said Christ was the wisdom of God.

1 Cor. 1:24

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Good enough for me.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 05-25-2018 at 11:46 PM.
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  #54  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:43 PM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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What does 1 Corinthians 1:24 say?
Nails it!
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  #55  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:57 PM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Nails it!
What's cool is that verse identifies Christ not only as Wisdom, but also Power. Christ is not only God's Wisdom, but God's Power. And we know the "power of God" is the Holy Ghost per Luke 1:35, Luke 11:20, and Matthew 12:28.

So Christ is also THE HOLY GHOST.
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  #56  
Old 05-26-2018, 08:32 AM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

Amen both of y'all broke that down really great I agree! Thanks for the lesson, I don't know everything, or near enough what I should know; but I can see that from scripture.

I know because of Romans 8:9 Christ is the Holy Ghost where it says "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." I mean the verse says all 3 of them intetchangably. Letting you know that it's God's Spirit, that it's Christ's Spirit. And as it's says that interchangable letting you know all are one and the same! One day that one jumped off the page at me.

Y'all have a good day brethren back.to.work!!
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  #57  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:00 AM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

If Ye Know These Things. Elder Ross Drysdale, Pentecostal Assemblies Of The World.

THE ANGEL OF THE LORD
The Pre-Incarnate Christ also appeared frequently in the Old Testament times as the Jehovah Angel, or Angel of the Lord in the KJV. The Angel of the Lord was none other than the Word of God. He was the Form or Image of the Invisible God which we have already discussed. The "body of heaven" which Moses and the elders of Israel saw, the Logos or Word of God, was none other than the glorious Angel of Jehovah. In the Old Testament dispensation the invisible God was embodied in the visible form of Christ as the Angel of God. In New Testament times the same God is embodied in the physical form of Christ as the Son of God. Christ has always been God's Temple or body, whether as the Angel of God, or as Son of God. The same Oneness truth prevails throughout recorded (and unrecorded) history, namely that the one divine invisible Spirit has always had his physical Person in whom He dwelt and manifested Himself. This Christ, whether as Angel of God or Son of God has always been the Mediator between the invisible God and his visible creation. An examination of some of the frequent appearances of the Angel of Jehovah will prove very enlightening on this theme. It must always be borne in mind that we are not talking about "two distinct persons in the Godhead." For God the Father is not a Person; he is a divine Omnipresent Spirit (John 4:24). Christ, whether as Angel of God or Son of God, has always been God's Only Person, God's visible Image. God the invisible Spirit has always embodied his essential deity and nature in the visible body of His "Person," the Christ.


THE ANGEL OF THE LORD WRESTLED WITH JACOB UNTIL DAWN. JACOB DECLARED, "I HAVE SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE."

THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH APPEARS TO JACOB

In Gen. 28:13 Jacob had a vision of God at Bethel. God declared to him at this time that He was "The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac." Twenty-One years later the Angel of God appeared to Jacob and told him that He was the God that appeared to Him at Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13). Thus the Angel of God is the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac!

Shortly after this a "man" wrestled with Jacob (Gen. 32:24). This mysterious "man" is called the "face of God." What Jacob saw was the Logos, the "image of the invisible God." This was the pre-incarnate Christ, then known as the Angel of the Lord.

The Prophet Hosea speaking about Jacob's unusual "wrestling match" said, "Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed: he wept and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel... even Jehovah God of hosts: Jehovah is his memorial" (Hosea 12:4-5 margin). Here we see that the mysterious "man" who wrestled with Jacob, as a man, is none other than the Angel of the Lord, and in His divine nature, Jehovah God Himself! Jacob wrestled with God in Christ! And this is the same One who is described as the "Word" who was in the Beginning, and was God! There can be no other conclusion. Jacob's mysterious "man" is identified by Hosea as the Angel of God. And this Angel of God is defined by the same prophet as Jehovah God.

THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH AND MOSES
The Angel of the Lord figures prominently in the life of Moses and in the Wilderness History of Israel. In Exodus 3:2 the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. When Moses drew nigh the bush the Angel said, "I am the God of thy Father, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exodus 3:6). It is clear that the Angel was Christ, the visible image of the invisible God, because the same verse says: "And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

THE ANGEL WHO LEADS TO THE PROMISED LAND

God promised to lead the children of Israel by means of His Angel manifestation. "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared." Christ as the Angel of God led the earthly Israel to an earthly Promised Land. But in this dispensation, Christ as the Son of God, leads the "spiritual Israel," His church, to their heavenly home:

"In my Father's house are many mansions. If it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2).
THE ANGEL WITH GOD'S NAME
Christ has always been the divine name bearer. This is because wherever the fullness of the divine nature is embodied, there God's throne is also. Christ, the human Son of God, was the Temple of the embodied Father, hence he had the Father's name, and announced the fact in John 5:43:

"I am come in my Father's name and ye receive me not."
The Angel of God, Christ in the Old Testament, was also the visible Temple of the Father:
"Beware of him and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him" (Ex 23:21).
God's name was in Him, because God was in Him! Who else has ever borne the Father's name but Christ? And how else could the divine Father Spirit transfer His name to a person except by incarnation or embodiment? The parallels between the Word of God (the Angel) and the Son of God are drawing ever closer.
THE ANGEL WHO CAN FORGIVE SIN
When Christ was here on earth as the Son of God he shocked the Pharisees by forgiving sin. In Luke 5:20 he said to the palsied man:

"Thy sins are forgiven thee."
The Pharisees remonstrated, reasoning that only God could forgive sins. Christ responded to them by announcing:
"The Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins" (Luke 5:24)
Because God the Father was incarnate in the Son, the Son could forgive sins.
"Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:50).
This makes Christ, the God-man, the mediator between sinful men and a sinless God.
The Angel of God in the Old Testament also "had power upon the earth" to forgive sins:

"Provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions" (Ex. 23:21).
To power to retain or pardon transgressions was a prerogative of the Angel of the Lord. This Angel had this power because God Himself was embodied in Him and functioned through him. Just as the "God-man" was a mediator between sinners and God in the New Testament times, so also was the "God-Angel" a similar mediator in Old Testament times. In either dispensation, Christ (whether as Word of God or Son of God) is the One mediator and the only "Person" with power to forgive sins. And the basis for this is the same in both time periods, namely, God (with His name) was in Christ!
THE ANGEL WHO MUST BE OBEYED
The Angel of God is to be obeyed as God Himself:

"Beware of him and obey his voice, provoke him not" (Ex. 23:21).
Why is it? Because the words of the Angel are actually the words of God Himself who is embodied in Him:
"But if thou shalt obey his voice, and do all that I speak..." (Ex 23:22).
The Angel's "voice" is actually God "speaking". When the same Angel-Word was made flesh ("and the Word was made flesh"), and became the Son of God, the exact same situation prevailed. The Son said:
"The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works" (John 14:10).
God has always used His Form or Image as His "Mouthpiece," so to speak. The results of obeying the Angel of God are the same as obeying the Son of God: deliverance from enemies (v. 22-23), a blessing through bread (Lord's Supper) and water (Baptism in Jesus' name), and divine healing (v. 25), and of course a new home on "the other side of Jordan."
THE ANGEL OF THE COVENANT
The most positive identification of the Son of God with the pre-incarnate Angel of the Lord is found in Malachi's prophecy. In the first verse of the third chapter we read:

"Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me."
This was clearly John the Baptist who was the preparing messenger for Christ, the Son of God. Mark 1:2 applies this to John the Baptist. Then the next thing that is to happen is
"The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly appear in His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, whom ye delight in" (Mal. 3:1 margin).
The Angel of the Lord, who walked the earth in a "celestial body" would now become the Son of God in a new "flesh blood" human body. The Angel of God had delivered to Israel the Old Covenant (Heb. 12:25-26, Acts 7:53, Gal. 3:19). Now the same Angel or Messenger of the Covenant appears on earth as a man to deliver the New Covenant:
"This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb. 10:16-17). In the Old Testament as the Angel of God, the Christ delivered the Old Covenant to the Old Israel. Now in the New testament, as the Son of God, He delivers the New Covenant to the New Israel.

THE ANGEL OF THE LORD AS REDEEMER

The Angel of the Lord is also designated as the "Angel of His Presence":

"In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of His presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them..." (Isa 63:9).
And this verse is given as an explanation of the preceding one which said Jehovah "was their Saviour" (Isa. 63:8).
What does it mean when the Jehovah-Angel is called the Angel of God's Presence? It means exactly what it implies. God's very presence, his essence or nature, is embodied in this Angel. The Angel is God manifested in a visible Form. We cannot strictly call it an "incarnation" for that refers only to human bodies. But, as John Paterson put it:

"While no thoughtful person would suggest that He took flesh prior to Bethlehem, His appearances in bodily form from the dawn of human history certainly...indicate something akin to an incarnation" (Paterson, p. 47).
God is so embodied in His Word or Angel that we can truthfully say:
"the Word was God."
The Angel-Word was the visible Temple of the otherwise invisible presence of God, hence he is the Angel of His Presence. Deity embodied in a glorious Personal Form. When the "Word was made flesh" we have the same deity or "presence" incarnate in a human form, the Son of God:
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself" (2 Cor. 5:19).
God in His Angel was the means by which He reconciled Israel. God in His Son is the means by which He reconciles the world!
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  #58  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:21 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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I don't know brother Michael claims a begotten Son prior to Bethlehem, but rather the Word as the manifest presence of God which became flesh as the Son? Perhaps he can clarify?
The bold part I believe to be the technically accurate answer.

Having said that how could it be wrong to identify the pre incarnate Logos as the Son?

Paul does it at least twice.

Colossians 1:13-17

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

He made the worlds by his Son.

His Son must be HIMSELF.

Isaiah 44:24 says he made all things by MYSELF.

His Son must be HIMSELF.

Here Paul basically says the same thing.

Ephesians 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God created all things by Jesus Christ.

If God created all things by HIMSELF....them HIMSELF must be Jesus Christ.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 05-26-2018 at 09:23 AM.
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  #59  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:21 AM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

https://www.amazon.com/If-Ye-Know-Th.../dp/141964579X

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  #60  
Old 05-26-2018, 12:56 PM
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Re: Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

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Best I have read on Oneness. Read and study this you will be more prepared when you are confronted by the Trins.
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