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  #11  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:39 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

So then, it seems the teaching that there was an angel named Lucifer, who sinned and fell and became 'satan', and who led other angels in rebellion against God and who fell and eventually became demons, who are the source of all man's problems, and who can be exorcised by experts, is a false teaching, a Jewish fable or myth, and is to be avoided. It blasphemes God's angels, thus libels God Himself and His government, it contradicts the teachings of the Bible and especially of the Lord Jesus Christ, overthrows the concepts of Divine Providence and the spiritual Authority of Christ, leads people astray, and is promoted by arrogant people who's end game is making some money.

This of course does not deny the existence and reality of demons and unclean spirits, demon possession, the reality of satan, etc. But it DOES deny the validity of Jewish myths about such things that detract from the truth and which promotes pagan religious beliefs of Dualism under the guise of 'truth'.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:54 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Supposing for the moment your exegesis of 2 Peter and Jude is correct, what then of these:

Quote:
This of course does not deny the existence and reality of demons and unclean spirits, demon possession, the reality of satan, etc.
What are they? Where to they come from? How do they fit into the picture of God's Government and Providence?
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Old 01-26-2016, 08:03 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Supposing for the moment your exegesis of 2 Peter and Jude is correct, what then of these:



What are they? Where to they come from? How do they fit into the picture of God's Government and Providence?
In 2 Chronicles 18:18-21, we have God on His throne speaking to spirits and asks all of them the same question. God asks these spirits "Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?" Their reply is to offer God many different solutions, until in verse 20, a spirit walks up before the throne and tells God he will be the deceiver in the mouth of all the prophets. Even when Satan comes before the Lord to accuse Job, it seems that Satan is also in the service of God, and cannot operate outside of God's sovereign control.
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Old 01-26-2016, 08:39 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Supposing for the moment your exegesis of 2 Peter and Jude is correct, what then of these:



What are they? Where to they come from? How do they fit into the picture of God's Government and Providence?
Whatever demons are, and whatever they are doing, it cannot be said scripturally that they are either the fallen angels, or the souls of the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and humans, or the souls of those who perished in the Flood, as quite a few people believe and teach.

I do not claim to know the origin of demons or unclean spirits. I think the term 'demon' is rather interesting, when we consider what the word actually connotes. The Greek term indicates that a 'daimon' is a part of the subconscious mind, the 'genius' or 'muse' for example. I studied this years ago and found that the term had a range of applications all stemming from it's origin referring to the 'inspiration' of poets, singers, and other highly creative type people. When that is taken into consideration, along with Paul's teaching that the gods of the gentiles were 'daimons', and further that according to Paul as far as Christians are concerned there is only ONE God, and that 'the idol is nothing', it seems that demons are psychological phenomenon of some sort. Please note I am not saying demons are simply figments of people's imaginations, or that they do not exist.

There are aspects of what we call 'the mind' that we still to this day do not understand. Things such as synchronicity, 'ESP', etc are phenomena that do not admit of easy definition. If we look at demons in the Scripture we see they appear to use the mind or consciousness of the person (or animal!) they are 'possessing' (controlling). For example, Legion possessed a man and made him act crazy, and was able to communicate through the man's vocal chords. However, when the spirit was sent into a herd of pigs they freaked out and ran into the sea and drowned. The pigs did not continue any conversations with anyone. The demon's 'manifestation' or existence was mediated through the consciousness or 'mind' of whatever it was possessing.

So this begs the question, do demons have an independent existence of their own? Perhaps they do, but it may not be in the sense we often think of, as though they were simply bad-mannered 'people' who happen to not have physical bodies. Demons are equated with 'unclean spirits', and a 'spirit' is literally a 'breath' or 'wind'.

(Keep in mind I am just rambling here, not trying to make a detailed, organised presentation of demonology. I am just trying to put all the data into a coherent whole. And I admit it may not entirely be possible. The Bible does not say where demons come from, or what exactly they are. And the term itself may be a catch-all term for various phenomena otherwise simply not explained.)
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:49 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
In 2 Chronicles 18:18-21, we have God on His throne speaking to spirits and asks all of them the same question. God asks these spirits "Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?" Their reply is to offer God many different solutions, until in verse 20, a spirit walks up before the throne and tells God he will be the deceiver in the mouth of all the prophets. Even when Satan comes before the Lord to accuse Job, it seems that Satan is also in the service of God, and cannot operate outside of God's sovereign control.
Yes, exactly. And in regards to satan, we should keep in mind the word is actually more a generic term than a proper name of some particular being. Thus 'satan' could be different things or persons, depending on the context.

Jesus said to Peter, 'Get thee behind me, Satan, for thou savourest not the things of God' in response to Peter's insistence that he would not allow Christ to be crucified. In this instance, Peter was 'satan', that is, 'the enemy', because Peter (in spite of all his good intentions) was in opposition to the Plan of God. Jesus was not saying 'Peter, thou art possessed of a demon, let me cast it out of you', but he was saying 'Peter, you are opposing the Divine Plan, and that will make you an enemy of God.' He was rebuking the mindset Peter had, the 'spirit' that prompted Peter's passionate declaration he would not allow Christ to be slain by wicked men.

Likewise, in regard to the census David undertook, which resulted in a plague upon Israel, one account says it was God, another says it was 'satan', meaning of course that God was a 'satan' to Israel at that time, ie that God had become Israel's enemy or opposer because of the census.

So the word 'satan' means 'enemy' rather than a personal, proper name of a fallen angelic super being. It can be applied to a host of things, people, spirits, things, diseases, etc. The woman was bound 18 years by a physical malady, yet it is also said she was 'bound by satan'. In Revelation the dragon, called 'the devil, and satan' sought to devour the Man-Child as soon as it was born. Who sought to kill Jesus at his birth? Herod, the Edomite king of Judea (appointed by Pagan Rome). He was a representative of the Roman government and all THAT represented (Roman society), and was a 'satan' or agent of 'satan' in that the Roman system attempted to destroy the Messiah.

And the Roman system seems represented in the Apocalyptic visions as a 'great serpent' or 'dragon' just as Egypt was represented as Leviathan the sea serpent. The Roman 'spirit' ruling the world, opposing Christ...

Well, we may be getting into a whole lot of other tangents, lol.
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  #16  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:27 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

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Yes, exactly. And in regards to satan, we should keep in mind the word is actually more a generic term than a proper name of some particular being. Thus 'satan' could be different things or persons, depending on the context.

Jesus said to Peter, 'Get thee behind me, Satan, for thou savourest not the things of God' in response to Peter's insistence that he would not allow Christ to be crucified. In this instance, Peter was 'satan', that is, 'the enemy', because Peter (in spite of all his good intentions) was in opposition to the Plan of God. Jesus was not saying 'Peter, thou art possessed of a demon, let me cast it out of you', but he was saying 'Peter, you are opposing the Divine Plan, and that will make you an enemy of God.' He was rebuking the mindset Peter had, the 'spirit' that prompted Peter's passionate declaration he would not allow Christ to be slain by wicked men.

Likewise, in regard to the census David undertook, which resulted in a plague upon Israel, one account says it was God, another says it was 'satan', meaning of course that God was a 'satan' to Israel at that time, ie that God had become Israel's enemy or opposer because of the census.

So the word 'satan' means 'enemy' rather than a personal, proper name of a fallen angelic super being. It can be applied to a host of things, people, spirits, things, diseases, etc. The woman was bound 18 years by a physical malady, yet it is also said she was 'bound by satan'. In Revelation the dragon, called 'the devil, and satan' sought to devour the Man-Child as soon as it was born. Who sought to kill Jesus at his birth? Herod, the Edomite king of Judea (appointed by Pagan Rome). He was a representative of the Roman government and all THAT represented (Roman society), and was a 'satan' or agent of 'satan' in that the Roman system attempted to destroy the Messiah.

And the Roman system seems represented in the Apocalyptic visions as a 'great serpent' or 'dragon' just as Egypt was represented as Leviathan the sea serpent. The Roman 'spirit' ruling the world, opposing Christ...

Well, we may be getting into a whole lot of other tangents, lol.
I placed the word "satan" where it is found in the original Hebrew.

Numbers 22:22

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for a satan against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him

Numbers 22:32

And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to satan thee, because thy way is perverse before me





1 Samuel 29:4

And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he (David) be a satan to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?


2 Samuel 19:22

And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be satans unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?


1 Kings 5:4

But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither satan nor evil occurrent.


1 Kings 11:14

And the LORD stirred up a satan unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.


1 Kings 11:23

And God stirred him up another satan, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:

1 Kings 11:25

And he was a satan to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.
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  #17  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:31 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
I placed the word "satan" where it is found in the original Hebrew.

Numbers 22:22

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for a satan against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him

Numbers 22:32

And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to satan thee, because thy way is perverse before me





1 Samuel 29:4

And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he (David) be a satan to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?


2 Samuel 19:22

And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be satans unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?


1 Kings 5:4

But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither satan nor evil occurrent.


1 Kings 11:14

And the LORD stirred up a satan unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.


1 Kings 11:23

And God stirred him up another satan, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:

1 Kings 11:25

And he was a satan to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.
You are a veritable Treasury of Scripture Knowledge.
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  #18  
Old 01-26-2016, 10:08 PM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Let me also say, as I look more closely at Jude in particular, as well as 2 Peter, it seems that the blasphemous allegations made by the false teachers against angelic beings is not the sole issue, nor even the most predominant one. It is, instead, a part of a larger picture. That larger picture being the infiltration of the church by people peddling superstitions, Jewish myths, false doctrines, rejection of the authority of the apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ, contradicting the teaching of Jesus Himself as well as the rest of the Scripture, introduction of various (false) doctrines concerning angels (in a wider sense), a rebellion against proper apostolic authority in the church, and other issues.

In fact, it seems some of this has some correlations to the epistles of John, which indicate a similar issue going on in his circles. The letters to the Seven Churches seem to indicate some similar things going, and of course Paul's farewell warning to the elders of the Ephesian assembly and his epistles to the Thessalonians seem to tie into all this as well.

(Just rambling out loud, once again...)
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2016, 01:50 AM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Wow. This is a lot of ground to cover.

NT writers occasionally quote from literature outside of the OT canon as we know it today. Having a line or two quoted in the NT does not justify including the entire body of literary work into the NT canon.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:03 AM
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Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

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Wow. This is a lot of ground to cover.

NT writers occasionally quote from literature outside of the OT canon as we know it today. Having a line or two quoted in the NT does not justify including the entire body of literary work into the NT canon.
I don't think anyone is arguing for including the Book of Enoch into the canon? But the issue is what exactly were Peter and Jude trying to accomplish when referencing Enoch (and possibly other writings)?

On a side note, I am not even entirely convinced they were quoting anybody except in the one instance of 'And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied...'etc. The other quotations and allusions to the Book of Enoch, and other apocryphal Jewish works, may not be quotations at all. Those works may be quoting Peter and Jude, to be honest. Also, I am currently looking at another possible explanation for the statements that do not involve any apocryphal Jewish beliefs at all... although I must confess that the understanding I outlined in this thread is - currently, to me - the strongest case I have seen that makes the most use of the available data.

I'll be back tomorrow (today? lol) to explore this some more.
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