Submission? Or Power and Control?

[houston]

Let's not act like this is done in a dark corner somewhere unbeknown to the leadership in the UPCI. It is the UPCI website where a pic was retrieved of a woman letting down her uncut hair to pray over the offering plate.

LS spread this junk all over the USA and around the world. He doesn't have a small following.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If there is false doctrine being taught, then it is good to see what the bible actually teaches and hold fast to that, and refute error.

But to say that because a few are teaching incorrectly that a whole organization should be discounted is cutting to deeply with possible serious repercussions, and possibly souls at stake.

There are people on this thread who have been hurt by the UPC and yet have the personal integrity to see that souls are at stake and are putting their hurt aside to be cautious as to not cause a brother or sister to fall.

There are others who seem to have no care for repercussions and are self centered in their concern.

I am not here to defend an organization per se. I spent the majority of my walk with the Lord in an independent Apostolic Church, before joining a UPC church. Let me just say up front UPC is very moderate in comparison.

My strong feelings on certain subjects are not because I want to hurt people's feelings, or defend an organization, it's because I have a concern for people losing their footing and finding themselves confused or even lost.

When "an organization" enables a false doctrine and doesn't come out and speak against it while allowing it's most well known ministers to spread the false doctrine then that is a sign to look deeper at all the things taught by such "an organization". One sin doesn't ruin an organization but it should cause caution.

As for people getting confused and losing their footing. Of course that is a concern. But be aware, the things you are doing and saying and defending may also cause be a cause and stumbling block for some. There is no one size fits all approach and even the noblest actions can offend and act as a stumbling block for certain people.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jfrog

When "an organization" enables a false doctrine and doesn't come out and speak against it while allowing it's most well known ministers to spread the false doctrine then that is a sign to look deeper at all the things taught by such "an organization". One sin doesn't ruin an organization but it should cause caution.

They don't enable, there are many ministers who are card carrying members who don't agree with the teaching of hair being a talismen. Again, there is nothing ever written in the Forward or the Pentecostal Herald concerning this issue, pro or con.

Originally Posted by jfrog

As for people getting confused and losing their footing. Of course that is a concern. But be aware, the things you are doing and saying and defending may also cause be a cause and stumbling block for some. There is no one size fits all approach and even the noblest actions can offend and act as a stumbling block for certain people.

Therefore someone has to do something, and they do. Ministers talk with ministers all the time concerning different subjects. So, we can't broad brush a whole organization with a teaching that isn't "officially" stated in their material. As far as people getting off track and confused because of a teaching or discussion concerning a teaching. Then we pray for their church eldership to be able to land their plane. Forums are the utmost worst place to get council or substitute for real face to face ministerial interaction. ILG and myself should never be taken as a replacement for the local assembly. Our banter should always be processed through the church leadership, prayer, and those who are in personal reach. I have young daughters, and I would be none too friendly to find out if they were on this forum (or anything like it) having "private counseling" by a self appointed "deliverance minister" or Emma Boatstrangeler's good twin, ILG.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If there is false doctrine being taught, then it is good to see what the bible actually teaches and hold fast to that, and refute error.

But to say that because a few are teaching incorrectly that a whole organization should be discounted is cutting to deeply with possible serious repercussions, and possibly souls at stake.

There are people on this thread who have been hurt by the UPC and yet have the personal integrity to see that souls are at stake and are putting their hurt aside to be cautious as to not cause a brother or sister to fall.

There are others who seem to have no care for repercussions and are self centered in their concern.

I am not here to defend an organization per se. I spent the majority of my walk with the Lord in an independent Apostolic Church, before joining a UPC church. Let me just say up front UPC is very moderate in comparison.

My strong feelings on certain subjects are not because I want to hurt people's feelings, or defend an organization, it's because I have a concern for people losing their footing and finding themselves confused or even lost.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

Let's not act like this is done in a dark corner somewhere unbeknown to the leadership in the UPCI. It is the UPCI website where a pic was retrieved of a woman letting down her uncut hair to pray over the offering plate.

LS spread this junk all over the USA and around the world. He doesn't have a small following.

So, it is an official position of the United Pentecostal Church International?

No, it isn't, also Brother Stoneking does not represent all the ministers of the UPCI. A lot of ministers I have fellowshipped over the years had critical observations of Brother Stoneking. None which had anything to do with hair being used to summon an army of angels. UPCI website having a woman laying her hair over the collection plate? Is the video still there? Did the UPCI defend the video as they would defend Jesus name baptism or One God?

Bro, we just need to tell the truth and shame the devil. The UPCI is like any other group of people. You got your good, your really good, your very cool, your super cool, your bad, your very bad, your bozos, and your shapeshifting ghouls. Every group should be judged by its best. UPCI will be around way after you and I are long gone. One God, Jesus name baptism and Holy Ghost infilling with speaking in other tongues is what I know she believes. That is her official statement, That is a great starting place to start.

So, let the dogs bark, and the trucks roll on!!!

You go on UPCI

[houston]

I'm sorry. The hair was placed over prayer requests at an Alabama ladies retreat.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If there is false doctrine being taught, then it is good to see what the bible actually teaches and hold fast to that, and refute error.

Right, that is what we have been trying to discuss, and why I asked for respectful dialogue. That is the point that ILG was making.

Contentious issues have always been discussed on FCF, NFCF, and AFF. FCF was a much better forum as people DID have respectful and intelligent dialogue. It wasn't a bunch of insults and GIF's. And there were a lot more posters because of that.

But to say that because a few are teaching incorrectly that a whole organization should be discounted is cutting to deeply with possible serious repercussions, and possibly souls at stake.

I don't believe anyone was taking that view. I don't believe that is the stance that ILG is taking either. I see a lot of value in the UPCI.

I am not here to defend an organization per se. I spent the majority of my walk with the Lord in an independent Apostolic Church, before joining a UPC church.

Right, you didn't spend the "majority" of your time in the UPCI and so....

Originally Posted by houston

Let's not act like this is done in a dark corner somewhere unbeknown to the leadership in the UPCI. It is the UPCI website where a pic was retrieved of a woman letting down her uncut hair to pray over the offering plate.

LS spread this junk all over the USA and around the world. He doesn't have a small following.

Thank you, true.

Originally Posted by houston

I'm sorry. The hair was placed over prayer requests at an Alabama ladies retreat.

Thank you, true.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But it seems as if these fears would only be an issue if you had cut your hair? If you had uncut hair, you would not be subject to those supposed doomed fates you read about, right?

So, is this how it went down: You wanted to cut your hair, but were afraid of what would happen?

Why did you want to cut your hair to begin with?

No, I never had a problem with standards. I had a problem with the mind prison the teachings put me into. I loved standards and I loved the lifestyle. If standards had been taught differently, I would probably be doing it today. I quit when I realized that to continue them would be to lead someone into the same mind prison I had found myself in and I didn't want to be responsible for that.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What?

Ok, let's try this out.

Why is it disgusting for a man to have continually growing hair.

Yet, when a woman prevents her hair from continually growing it is embarrassing? Why nature? The Greek: φύσις which is translated as nature is talking about order. Everyone from Homer to Plato used the word to describe the creative order.. Aristotle used this word to describe the "process of an acorn growing into an oak tree" The apostle does the same thing when he speaks of the natural order of God, Christ, Adam, and Eve. Continually growing uncut hair on a man was the order being changed. Your idea of what if he trimmed his hair (I would suspect when it grew to the length to touch the soles of his feet), makes no sense, because it isn't about what ifs, or any Ex-UPCers hypothetical.

Revelation 9:8 points out to us locust which have hair like women? This obviously means that there are two opposing symbols one hair as WOMEN and logically hair like men. ILG? Can you tell the rest of us cavemen what is Revelation 9:8 talking about when it uses the symbol "their hair was like women's hair?" Therefore, trimming is your modern way of wresting an ancient manuscript into your modern culture.

Hair like women's hair is obviously long hair. That doesn't mean it had to be uncut. And, for the record, Samson was commanded not to cut his hair and women could take the Nazarite vow and shave their head. If women cutting their hair was a sin, it would have been a sin then and now.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Someone posted this link some time back on this forum or maybe it was NFCF. I haven't seen anyone ever comment on it. If you follow the link the information is on the top, far right side of the page. You have to get there by going through "253" under Max. Inst.

My question would be, if there is a word in Greek for "uncut", which apparently there is, why wouldn't Paul have used it? Especially because he is speaking to a Greek audience.


Headword
Dictionaries Max. Inst.
Min. Inst.
# Documents
Short Definition
ἄτομος
LSJ, Middle Liddell
253
41 30 uncut, unmown,

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...bmit=Do+Search

Yep. But he didn't.