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  #41  
Old 12-28-2021, 10:30 AM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

I believe both heaven and hell are everlasting....
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2021, 10:41 AM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
The living, unbelievers, especially the Jews?
Judah had 5 brothers.
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2021, 10:45 AM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
The rich man had 5 brethren, who do they represent?
Either the five brothers of Judah (through Leah), or the five brothers or sons of the high priest.
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2021, 01:15 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
The rich man had 5 brethren, who do they represent?
The rich man is Caiaphas, who had five brothers.
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  #45  
Old 12-28-2021, 01:25 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
"Real to life" means that the stories in the parable are obviously fiction but the things, persons, and places inside the story are elements extracted from real life: e.g., you don't see Jesus using animals talking in parables, because that's not a thing in real life, you don't see Jesus using trees dancing, or people flying to stars, for the same reason.
Jesus's stories never had things, persons or places, or theological truths that were not from real life. If Hades had not been a real life element, with a separation between the just and the unjust, then it would have not been in Jesus's story.




You are right, figures of speech are there with a purpose to communicate a thought via comparison in most cases. You can see it as a metaphor, however, it wouldn't still be what it is really happening. The verse I posted above is clearly an euphemism. Lazarus wasn't sleeping, and Jesus didn't wake up Lazarus, he brought back to life with a command.

Theology is not just the mere study of the Scripture, but the discipline of extracting truths, through studying, from the Scriptures.
What I refer as theological concepts is theologically loaded or profound terms in their context, e.g. grace, salvation, etc... I don't see how "sleep" it is figuratively referring to being dead is a theologically profound term. Jesus himself had to clarify to the disciples that Lazarus was dead without extra comments regarding his "truly sleeping" condition.



Revelation is a book full of elements that are not real to life mixed concepts extracted from real life. Since souls are elements from real life, and also pretty much everything in that passage is, it is sensible to infer that the event described is the imaginary thing, not the elements part of it.

The example of Abel is not equal to the passage in Rev, and not a good comparison. The blood crying out is definitely a personification which is not real to life.


According to your statement, we can imply that if you kill the body, then there is no "whole human entity" anymore, and therefore, there is no "soul". Jesus is separating them as something that remains after death.

You are right, nobody is destroyed in Hades. The rich man was being tormented, not eternally destroyed.




Moving the comma would make the phrase a strange phrase as it would make "today" a totally irrelevant word in the conversation. Jesus had already said "Assuredly" (or verily verily). It could be argued that it is to emphasize, however, he didn't use "I say to you today" in any other moment to put emphasis, so it wasn't his style of conversation to achieve that. In the closest phrase in another passage, "today" actually carries a significant meaning in the sentence:
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night

Leaving the comma where it is, does make the word "today" have a much better sense in the context. It is in response to the wish of the thief to "be remembered" in the future when Jesus came in his kingdom, which Jesus told the good news that won't be a future event for him to be with Jesus, but that "today" the thief will be counted with the righteous.

Therefore, leaving the comma where it is, makes more sense in the context.

Jesus and the thief went to the same place where the rest of the Old Testament saints went: to Hades, but the side where the just was. But Jesus didn't stay there because there was no an unpaid accusation against Him preventing him from reaching heaven, instead He took the righteous saints of the OT up to "paradise" because their sins were paid at the cross. They were justified by believing in a future Savior.




Paradise is the place of rest for the justified in Christ while they await the resurrection. Since it is where Jesus is, we can infer it is in heaven. Paul also says it is in the third heaven.
Philippians 1:23 (NKJV) 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The context of the Psalm is the LORD putting the Lord in place of authority ruling over the land of the living and the dominion of Satan.

David is not in heaven crowned as king, nor with a living body to rule over the land of the living. It would be odd to think that a soul without a body is ruling over the land of the living. The David ascending to heaven is definitely referring to the possibility of David as a living human ascending to heaven, which is what Jesus did.
So you are saying Jesus and thief went to heaven the same day He died? And that dead people separated from their bodies still have laps, tongues, fingers, mouths? And that the unjust were also there? And both groups could communicate with each other? And that the unjust are punished before being judged? And that in Revelation there are some saints under a literal altar crying out for vengeance?

Please explain.
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  #46  
Old 12-28-2021, 01:30 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
I believe both heaven and hell are everlasting....
Revelation 20:14 KJV
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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  #47  
Old 12-28-2021, 01:52 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

maybe I should say eternal punishment or eternal life..Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
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  #48  
Old 12-28-2021, 01:58 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So you are saying Jesus and thief went to heaven the same day He died? And that dead people separated from their bodies still have laps, tongues, fingers, mouths? And that the unjust were also there? And both groups could communicate with each other? And that the unjust are punished before being judged? And that in Revelation there are some saints under a literal altar crying out for vengeance?

Please explain.

So you are saying Jesus and thief went to heaven the same day He died? Yes, that's my inference from the evidences in the Scriptures

And that dead people separated from their bodies still have laps, tongues, fingers, mouths? That's what it seems like. I haven't died to testify about the details, though, but that's what I interpret.

And that the unjust were also there? And both groups could communicate with each other? Yes, the adobe of the dead (Hades) had a separation between the just and the unjust but could still allow for communication. That may seem crazy and hard to explain the details but that's what the text says. That's what the story from Jesus describes.

And that the unjust are punished before being judged? They are being tormented in the prison. I don't know the source of the torment, since the Bible doesn't state it.


And that in Revelation there are some saints under a literal altar crying out for vengeance? Let me explain this. What I said is that the described event is the fictitious thing, carrying a symbolic meaning, but the elements of the event are drawn from elements in real life.

Pretty much everything in this text are elements drawn from real life, the story itself is not, as it is the symbolic thing:
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV) 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

It is the same as parables: made up stories that are real to life, with elements (the entities and the things they do, and the places) that are from real life. If you incorporate elements from fantasy then it is no longer a parable: e.g. animals talking, humans with winds flying to stars, etc...
The Bible has those two, but in the case of Revelation, not everything is fantastic creatures and actions. Specifically in that text, "souls" are not drawn from fantasy, as they appear in many other parts of the Bible in genres that speak in clear terms to mean something that it is real to life.
Does that make sense?

I hope I'm not frustrating you . Just having an interesting conversation. I actually enjoyed reading your post as you have very good points and also good questions. For example, "why does God need to resurrect the unjust to judge them then?", and also the overall point that the resurrection of the just and the unjust is the key doctrine regarding afterlife, which is the opposite of what you see today in conversations and preachings.

Last edited by coksiw; 12-28-2021 at 02:04 PM.
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  #49  
Old 12-28-2021, 02:30 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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  #50  
Old 12-28-2021, 04:32 PM
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Re: What's your view on Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
maybe I should say eternal punishment or eternal life..Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Yes, the punishment (which is "to perish") will be everlasting. The gift of God is eternal life, and the wages of sin is death. Only the saints will live forever.
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