Pentematic

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

True about the Holy Ghost being secondary to the new birth in their terms.Could you explain the holiness standard?

No Michael. Why would I need to explain something that you already understand. You know exactly what I’m referring to when I say most that are considered “Pentecostal” do not keep a “holiness standard”.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Two points on this.

1. When I was around the Charismatic movement and read many of the various authors, most believed tongues to be the initial evidence of the baptism. Not all but most.

2. You wrote:



The big difference between Charismatic/Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals is the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost". Charismatic/Pentecostals all agree when you accept Christ you have a measure of the Holy Ghost. Thus you are saved but not spirit filled.

However if one wants to be FILLED with the Spirit they should seek for the baptism, which is evidenced by tongues.

On the other hand most Oneness Pentecostals believe that to receive the Holy Ghost and to be filled with the Holy Ghost are the same event. If one is not "filled" with the Spirit with the evidence of tongues they are not saved.

As far as "dress standards" most at least used to believe in modesty. Several Charismatic/Pentecostal groups I was around had strict dress codes. The main issue was always can women wear pants.

As far as the term "Pentematic" maybe its a solo Facebook group? Ive never heard that before. But maybe its a movement among Charismatic/Pentecostals.

To simplify it as much as possible, most Charismatics and Trinitarian Pentecostals do not believe that the Holy Ghost is necessary for salvation, nor do they typically believe that the outward sign of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues. They tend to accept a variety of different "signs" as evidence of a Christian "receiving" the Holy Ghost, although they generally say Holy Spirit.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Are you describing the UPC?













Bwahahahahahahahahaha

No, I'm not taking a stab at the UPC, nor anyone else for that matter.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I wonder how much difference there is in Pentematic and Bapticostal.

Well, my family once attended a church that jokingly called themselves Bapticostal. Basically, they were your regular run-of-the-mill Baptist church that believed in the spiritual gifts. I only remember a few people speaking in tongues, specifically the pastor of the church at that time. They held big tent revivals and had these charismatic-type singing group come visit a lot. Looking back, there probably wasn't much difference in the services we had at this church than what most Church of God country churches are having today.

The church itself was under the Full Gospel Baptist umbrella. They were Trinitarian, baptized by full immersion in titles, and believed that speaking in tongues was a gift from God given to certain Christians that strived for it. I don't ever remember anyone there connecting the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues. Tongues in themselves were simply a "gift" that God deviated at His liking.

This church now has removed the "Full Gospel" phrase from its sign and has only a few attendees. They're just your regular ole Baptist church now I guess. I haven't been there in years.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by consapente89

The majority of those that fall under the denominational world’s “Pentecostal” label nowadays do not keep any form of holiness standard and see HG baptism and secondary to new birth. Why the new label? Goofy. I doubt it’s much of a real thing...but just a self ascribed label by someone on the net.

You're absolutely right. The Pentecostal church as lost its identity. Holiness has left, and next to no one receives the Holy Ghost anymore. It's all got to do with their continuous push away from their foundation. Many Trinitarian Pentecostals are hard against Jesus Name, and even those that still practice outward holiness seem to lack the love of the Gospel and the desire to know Truth. They've become accustomed to dressing a certain way, but their heart isn't attached anymore. At least it doesn't seem that way.

This attitude as crept into the Apostolic church as well, as I'm sure you're well aware. Many an Apostolic looks just the world today, and the Holy Ghost is slowly taking a back-burner in most teachings.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by consapente89

No Michael. Why would I need to explain something that you already understand. You know exactly what I’m referring to when I say most that are considered “Pentecostal” do not keep a “holiness standard”.

When I hear "holiness standard" by an Apostolic it means this.

1. Men cannot have beards.
2. Women cannot wear pants.
3. Women cannot cut their hair, even if their hair would still be to their waist.

Thats about it. Nothing on the sermon on the mount. Nothing on love. A far cry from the holiness standard set by Jesus.

Matt 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which in Heaven is perfect.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

When I hear "holiness standard" by an Apostolic it means this.

1. Men cannot have beards.
2. Women cannot wear pants.
3. Women cannot cut their hair, even if their hair would still be to their waist.

Thats about it. Nothing on the sermon on the mount. Nothing on love. A far cry from the holiness standard set by Jesus.

Matt 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which in Heaven is perfect.

Well, if all you think of is "standards", then that might be the issue. Standards, as we call them, follows salvation. It doesn't cause salvation. But you know that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Well, if all you think of is "standards", then that might be the issue. Standards, as we call them, follows salvation. It doesn't cause salvation. But you know that.

I would say about 95% of oneness pentecostals equate holiness with "standards". They seem to have no concept of the actual depth of entire sanctification.

Example 1: two people in church. One "struggles with" standards. Their salvation is always in question and they are generally considered backslidden. The other "struggles with" lust/bitterness/doubt/fill-in-the-blank but if they look the part they are constantly assured they are doing okay and "it's just part of the Christian battle" etc.

Example 2: If you say "Holiness is required to make it to heaven" all oneness pentecostals within earshot will immediately assume you are talking about "standards" and will start arguing about hair length, dresses, sleeve length, video, makeup, jewelry, etc. They will not assume you are talking about heart purity, faith, dedication to God, or submission of every area of life to obedience to the Word/Law of God. Such things have to first be pointed out and then the usual disclaimers are put forward "Oh, of course, yes those things are important".

Example 3: This thread.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I would say about 95% of oneness pentecostals equate holiness with "standards". They seem to have no concept of the actual depth of entire sanctification.

Example 1: two people in church. One "struggles with" standards. Their salvation is always in question and they are generally considered backslidden. The other "struggles with" lust/bitterness/doubt/fill-in-the-blank but if they look the part they are constantly assured they are doing okay and "it's just part of the Christian battle" etc.

Example 2: If you say "Holiness is required to make it to heaven" all oneness pentecostals within earshot will immediately assume you are talking about "standards" and will start arguing about hair length, dresses, sleeve length, video, makeup, jewelry, etc. They will not assume you are talking about heart purity, faith, dedication to God, or submission of every area of life to obedience to the Word/Law of God. Such things have to first be pointed out and then the usual disclaimers are put forward "Oh, of course, yes those things are important".

Example 3: This thread.

Nails it

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I would say about 95% of oneness pentecostals equate holiness with "standards". They seem to have no concept of the actual depth of entire sanctification.

Example 1: two people in church. One "struggles with" standards. Their salvation is always in question and they are generally considered backslidden. The other "struggles with" lust/bitterness/doubt/fill-in-the-blank but if they look the part they are constantly assured they are doing okay and "it's just part of the Christian battle" etc.

Example 2: If you say "Holiness is required to make it to heaven" all oneness pentecostals within earshot will immediately assume you are talking about "standards" and will start arguing about hair length, dresses, sleeve length, video, makeup, jewelry, etc. They will not assume you are talking about heart purity, faith, dedication to God, or submission of every area of life to obedience to the Word/Law of God. Such things have to first be pointed out and then the usual disclaimers are put forward "Oh, of course, yes those things are important".

Example 3: This thread.

Holiness is an inward and outward experience. Once you allow God to clean up the inside, you won't have an issue with following suit outwardly.

I'd agree that most Apostolics automatically think of "standards" as limitations and restrictions on outward attire and conduct. I'm glad I'm in a church where it's preached that inner and outer holiness are equally important to God. Now, I'm not saying that all of us have everything the way God wants it, but it isn't because it's not preached from the platform.