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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #81  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:32 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Are you saying to believe the dead in Christ are already in Paradise is a false belief?
If Yeshua is the ONLY ONE who has immortality then the belief that many others have it in Paradise is obviously false. Paul told the Thessalonians the words to use to comfort the friends and relatives of the dead in 1 Thess 4:18.

He gave them nothing concerning the loved ones being in Paradise already. Rather he said they were asleep in Christ and would rise from the dead first at the second coming.
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  #82  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:53 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Are you saying that the only hope a Christian has is to live and die,go down in the grave and sleep in a state of complete unawareness until the day of resurrection?
The only hope? Isnt that enough? You just proved my entire point!

Men have given a false hope and therby made the Christians real and true hope of no effect!

Is the "instant heaven" doctrine one of the foundation teachings of Christianity in Hebrews six? No it is not mentioned. The resurrection from the dead however is.

You along with many others think instant heaven is a greater hope to have than the resurrection. Note what Paul said about our hope:

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Why does not Paul say his hope is that when he dies he will be immortal?

Note how he puts it to a personal level.

10: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11: If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phil. 3:10-11

Paul poured out everything in life for THIS HOPE. The resurrection of the dead.

Get the point? There is NO GREATER HOPE for a Christian than the resurrection of the dead!

Paul himself concluded if the DEAD RISE NOT we should get out and party. We should get all lifes happines NOW. Why? Because nothing else is available for those seeking immortality.

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

How perfectly clear! The context of this entire chapter is the resurrection of the dead. Paul says if THIS DID NOT HAPPEN we would be better off to eat and drink now while we can.

HE OFFERS THEM NO OTHER HOPE EXCEPT THE RESURRECTION!

Yet many say "nay Paul our souls would yet be alive in Heaven".

Its a matter of who you believe what you think a Christians hope is.

I consider it wonderful to have the hope I will at the last day rise from death to eternal life-immortality.

My hope is the same as Pauls.
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  #83  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:57 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by shag View Post
MTD,


I am also looking forward to your interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:14-15.




14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
See post number 68 in this thread.
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  #84  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:05 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

Apostolic Friends,

If it is a greater and more sound hope that at death we go right into the presence of Jesus Christ with immortality consider this.

Does not that make DEATH the great hope for a Christian? Hey when we die weve got it made! We will have everyting we ever wanted when we die!

What a marvelous experience to die and instantly be in Heaven with eternal life! Oh for the joy of death!

Yet do we hear anyone saying these things when themselves or a loved one is diagnosed to soon die? Why do we pray and ask God to keep them alive in this evil world when they would instantly be in the joys of Heaven?

The actions of Christians do not agree with their belief of the immortal soul-instant heaven doctrine.

Paul says resurrection is our hope men say death is our hope. Who do you agree with?
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  #85  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:24 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Apostolic Friends,

If it is a greater and more sound hope that at death we go right into the presence of Jesus Christ with immortality consider this.

Does not that make DEATH the great hope for a Christian? Hey when we die weve got it made! We will have everyting we ever wanted when we die!

What a marvelous experience to die and instantly be in Heaven with eternal life! Oh for the joy of death!

Yet do we hear anyone saying these things when themselves or a loved one is diagnosed to soon die? Why do we pray and ask God to keep them alive in this evil world when they would instantly be in the joys of Heaven?

The actions of Christians do not agree with their belief of the immortal soul-instant heaven doctrine.

Paul says resurrection is our hope men say death is our hope. Who do you agree with?
Micheal,
Is this last post the summation of your understanding of why this transitional 'moment vs. season' is so defining and important?

If I am reading your contribution in this thread (with at least some degree of accuracy) it seems to be focused upon whether DEATH is our hope OR resurrection is OUR hope?

If it is a differentiation between a momentary portal or a place of extended resting from any works....how does one's proper understanding of this enhance or hinder their prosperity in the NOW of their experience in God's Kingdom?
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  #86  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:24 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

36: Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37: And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38: And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39: Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40: But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41: And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
42: And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord. Acts 9:36-42

What can we learn from this story? Was Tabitha alive in Heaven while the widows were mourning over her? Why were the widows not praising Elohim that she now had immortality and victory over the world, the flesh, and the devil? Why did they bother Peter to leave a great revival in another city to come and pray she would return to Earth and have to go through the suffering of death yet again at a later date?

Could we imagine how greived Tabitha must have been? Was she in tears crying Lord please let me stay! I dont want to go back! And then the Lord commanded her to go back to this evil and sinful world?

Then when she sat up alive in bed she never bothers to tell us the story of seeing Yeshua and all the glories of Heaven?

Is it not much more realistic in agreement with the story that unfloded that they believed Tabitha was dead? And when she arose it was with joy because now she had life again?

Does this story portray death as a friend or an enemy?

Did Peter and the saints give any evidence that they believed they were praying for this woman to come back from the glory of Heaven and the presence of Yeshua to come back and live on Earth again?

Or did they believe she was dead and would be restored to LIFE?
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  #87  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:33 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

MtD,
I just wanted to reiterate that I have no expectation (understanding) that death is a momentary portal into a newly animated existence in the presence of God.

My departure from yours may involve an expectation that there is higher 'awareness' then some total cesation the temporal mind might assume pertains to death. Just like our understanding of this life's sleep is a very 'altered condition' from the awake state.

Sleep is a place that is absent of works, the body is at rest....but processing and awareness is functioning.
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Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]

Last edited by tbpew; 06-26-2009 at 07:35 AM.
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  #88  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:37 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by tbpew View Post
Micheal,
Is this last post the summation of your understanding of why this transitional 'moment vs. season' is so defining and important?

If I am reading your contribution in this thread (with at least some degree of accuracy) it seems to be focused upon whether DEATH is our hope OR resurrection is OUR hope?

If it is a differentiation between a momentary portal or a place of extended resting from any works....how does one's proper understanding of this enhance or hinder their prosperity in the NOW of their experience in God's Kingdom?
It enhances our experience because we are believing in the truth rather than error. We can have a realistic faith and hope given to us by Elohim.

As to the practical effect I say there will be no noticable difference to one who dies.

When we die we will have no awareness that ANY time has passed before we wake up in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye.

It is only the living that perceive the passing of time.

So when you compare a momentary portal and an extended resting from works what does that mean? Are you saying one is conscious and just at rest? Or by that do you mean its as if they were "asleep" as I do?
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  #89  
Old 06-26-2009, 07:57 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by tbpew View Post
MtD,
I just wanted to reiterate that I have no expectation (understanding) that death is a momentary portal into a newly animated existence in the presence of God.

My departure from yours may involve an expectation that there is higher 'awareness' then some total cesation the temporal mind might assume pertains to death. Just like our understanding of this life's sleep is a very 'altered condition' from the awake state.

Sleep is a place that is absent of works, the body is at rest....but processing and awareness is functioning.
In light of your view would you care to comment on my post about the resurrection of Tabitha? What was her state while Peter and saints were praying for her to return to life?
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  #90  
Old 06-26-2009, 08:22 AM
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Re: Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dea

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
In light of your view would you care to comment on my post about the resurrection of Tabitha? What was her state while Peter and saints were praying for her to return to life?
I would be happy to.

Her resurrection would serve in the same manner that Lazarus and the dead son of the widow at Zarephath....that God be revealed and glorified. Within this revelation of God's glory; comfort and joy replaces the very signficant near-term loss of a co-laborer in this present life.

To live is Christ, to die is gain.

Each of these departures were very brief in the realm where time exists. Each restoration to 'below' life [life in the visible realm] occurred before the temporal systems could complete the corruption of the body/flesh (although in the case of Lazarus the observers thought they must have gotten a good start --though never confirmed by observation).

I submit that each of these departures and return where for the purpose that Jesus spoke:
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. "

My last post attempted to share my absence of believing in a momentary portal from below "awakeness" to above "awakeness". But if death means an immediate continuation to "life in the next that is initially a 'sleep state', the larger set of scriptural witnesses appears to be reconciled.
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Last edited by tbpew; 06-26-2009 at 08:26 AM.
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