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Canadian Flavour FROM C2C ~The Canadian Corner~


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  #51  
Old 06-11-2007, 08:31 AM
Truly Blessed Truly Blessed is offline
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Originally Posted by Maple Leaf View Post
Is the ACOP a stand alone denomination because that is a better structure, or because its doctrinal distinctives bar it from participation in larger fellowships?

The ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI because of its inclusion of trinitarianism and its promotion of Calvinism, and is refused partnership with the PAOC because of its official "Jesus Name" baptismal formula and its stand for the doctrine of unconditional eternal security.
ML, with all due respect, you are misinformed about the ACOP. First of all, where does the ACOP have "inclusion of trinitarianism"? I assume that you refer to its Godhead statement, "We believe in the eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Which part of that statement do you not believe?

Secondly, to say the ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI means nothing. What organization isn't excluded from partnership with the UPCI?

Thirdly, the ACOP has never requested partnership with the PAOC as far as I know, so how can you be refused something you have never requested? Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours.

BTW, since when does being an organization constitute "a stand alone denomination"? For whatever reason you seem to have a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I'm sorry to see that. One thing I will say about the ACOP. I have never heard any preacher in any setting speak in a derogatory manner about the UPC during the three years I have been in the West. If mentioned at all, it is with respect, while at the same time simply stating they don't agree with this or that point of emphasis.
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  #52  
Old 06-11-2007, 08:52 AM
Truly Blessed Truly Blessed is offline
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Originally Posted by Maple Leaf View Post
In your initial post on this topic, you used the "mission field" example as a basis for the argument that the Canadian churches should be nationalized. In the context of that argument the difference between a controlled mission field and a full partnership is far from being a moot point.
I used the "mission field" analogy only to make the point that every other nation of the world has their own national organization and identity. A "controlled" mission field. Now there's a telling terminology. I'm sure that some of those national works feel as if they're being controlled at times.



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Originally Posted by Maple Leaf View Post
Canada is a full partner in the UPCI, and enjoys a disproportionate amount of control over the direction of the denomination. Canada has approximately 15% of the votes on the General Board, but only represents approximately 4% of the constituency of the UPCI. Canadian ministers, as full members of the UPCI, are eligible for the executive offices of the UPCI, including the office of General Superintendent, a privilege not extended to ministers on mission fields.

There was a moot point made, but It wasn't I who made it.
I guess having disproportionate clout in an American organization would certainly be preferable to having 100% control of a Canadian organization! But that's a moot point I think!
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  #53  
Old 06-11-2007, 08:56 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.
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  #54  
Old 06-11-2007, 09:04 AM
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BoredOutOfMyMind BoredOutOfMyMind is offline
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Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.
There is a GIB in Alberta also.
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  #55  
Old 06-11-2007, 09:52 AM
Truly Blessed Truly Blessed is offline
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Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind View Post
There is a GIB in Alberta also.
What's a GIB?
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  #56  
Old 06-11-2007, 10:10 AM
Maple Leaf Maple Leaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Truly Blessed View Post
ML, with all due respect, you are misinformed about the ACOP. First of all, where does the ACOP have "inclusion of trinitarianism"? I assume that you refer to its Godhead statement, "We believe in the eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Which part of that statement do you not believe?

Secondly, to say the ACOP is excluded from partnership with the UPCI means nothing. What organization isn't excluded from partnership with the UPCI?

Thirdly, the ACOP has never requested partnership with the PAOC as far as I know, so how can you be refused something you have never requested? Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours.

BTW, since when does being an organization constitute "a stand alone denomination"? For whatever reason you seem to have a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I'm sorry to see that. One thing I will say about the ACOP. I have never heard any preacher in any setting speak in a derogatory manner about the UPC during the three years I have been in the West. If mentioned at all, it is with respect, while at the same time simply stating they don't agree with this or that point of emphasis.
Pastor Truly Blessed

I completely reject your charge of a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I have never, on this forum or any other, made any negative statement about the ACOP. For that matter, I have never made any negative public statement about the ACOP, nor have I even been in a meeting where a negative statement was made. I actually know very little, living in the east, about the ACOP as a denomination. The ACOP brethren that I have met, I have found to be fine Christians.

You have apparently interpreted the term "stand alone denomination" as a criticism when it means nothing more than that the ACOP is a separate entity, not a part of either the UPCI or the PAOC.

I find it interesting that you take offense at the suggestion of the inclusion of trinitarianism in the ACOP when you yourself go on to say, "Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours."

I never even said that the inclusion of trinitarianism was a bad thing, only that it was a factor in the exclusion of the ACOP from partnership with the UPCI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truly Blessed
"We believe in the eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Which part of that statement do you not believe?
I find it curious that you would think that any Christian, of any persuasion, would not believe this godhead statement. I certainly don't find anything in it to disagree with.

Here is a quote from Professor Fudge's book, "Christianity Without the Cross" (Page 60. Footnote 102). Do you disgree with this statement made by the Moderator of the ACOP?

Quote:
ACOP no longer identifies itself as a Oneness group. 'I was speaking briefly last week . . . with the Moderator of ACOP . . . (he) clearly and firmly denied any association with the Oneness tradition.' Correspondence from David Reed, 7 May 2001,1.
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  #57  
Old 06-11-2007, 01:22 PM
Truly Blessed Truly Blessed is offline
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Originally Posted by Maple Leaf View Post
Pastor Truly Blessed

I completely reject your charge of a bad attitude toward the ACOP. I have never, on this forum or any other, made any negative statement about the ACOP. For that matter, I have never made any negative public statement about the ACOP, nor have I even been in a meeting where a negative statement was made. I actually know very little, living in the east, about the ACOP as a denomination. The ACOP brethren that I have met, I have found to be fine Christians.

You have apparently interpreted the term "stand alone denomination" as a criticism when it means nothing more than that the ACOP is a separate entity, not a part of either the UPCI or the PAOC.

I find it interesting that you take offense at the suggestion of the inclusion of trinitarianism in the ACOP when you yourself go on to say, "Actually the ACOP has a very close working relationship with the PAOC. Our leadership speaks at their conferences and their leaders speak at ours."

I never even said that the inclusion of trinitarianism was a bad thing, only that it was a factor in the exclusion of the ACOP from partnership with the UPCI.



I find it curious that you would think that any Christian, of any persuasion, would not believe this godhead statement. I certainly don't find anything in it to disagree with.

Here is a quote from Professor Fudge's book, "Christianity Without the Cross" (Page 60. Footnote 102). Do you disgree with this statement made by the Moderator of the ACOP?
I'll leave the assessment of your attitude to others on AFF who can be more objective perhaps than myself who, rather than being an independent like yourself, belong to the organization you speak of and apt to be on the defensive.

As to the statement of the former Moderator, if this is true, it must have been decided by the Moderator, because no General Session since I became a member in January 1998 has voted to adopt this position. I certainly have not received any communication that states what is said in this quote. I will be investigating this.

I am surprised you don't see the difference between your statement of "inclusion of trinitarianism" (which I interpret to mean as being part of our statement of faith), and the fact that we would have fellowship with other born again believers from another organization.
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  #58  
Old 06-11-2007, 01:38 PM
Barb Barb is offline
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Originally Posted by Truly Blessed View Post
What's a GIB?
Elder, I will try and interpret for you. I believe in the tongue of the brethren, GIB is Good Independent Brother...
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  #59  
Old 06-11-2007, 01:40 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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After reading this, some are far too organizationally minded. I felt that way even while in the UPC.
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  #60  
Old 06-11-2007, 01:41 PM
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Felicity Felicity is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Y'all consolidate with us I think we have 1 church in Canada we are taking the nation by storm keeping the officials of the ACOP and UPC awake at nights.
LOL!

We have at least one GIB church here in this area and I've met the pastor on more than one occasion!
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