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  #21  
Old 07-08-2016, 12:50 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

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Originally Posted by RonMurray View Post
What you could do, though, is actually go to God about it.

Understand brother, I received the Holy Ghost in 1980, at 15 yrs of age in a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church. I was licensed with the Assemblies of God from 1986 to 1993. In 1993 I joined the UPCI. That should indicate to you that I indeed did "go to God about it". I do not interpret scripture as you seem to. I study it from all angles and thoroughly research it. I do not feel the need to continually look for some continued affirmation that what I teach is truth. I see no other possible interpretation to I John 5:8 than the one I shared. The context is about God bearing witness of his Son, publicly affirming him in several instances.
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  #22  
Old 07-08-2016, 01:12 PM
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RonMurray RonMurray is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

In general, we learn over time with studying with a combination of the natural ability that God has given us with intelect, common sense, and reasonong and with help and teachng by the Holy Spirit. But sometimes God gives us divine revelation and understanding of things.

A good example of that is an unusual divine revelation and understanding that God had given me about the earth itself being used as an example of the new birth by blood, water, and fire (fire being symbolic of the baptism of the Holy Spirit).

What made this unusual is that it wasn't one single thing, it was knowledge and understandong of a whole lesson that all came to me all at omnce in a single moment. So this was purely divine.

I put a message together to explain it.

God uses the earth itself as an example of the new birth by blood, water, and fire. The earth representing man. Fire representing the Holy Spirit for us in salvation.

In the story of Noah, the earth was flooded with water, and the Bible says that this was symbolic of water baptism, where 8 souls were saved by water. But the earth itself was baptized, being completely covered in water. This is where water is applied to the earth.

In Revelation 14;20, "And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs." This is where blood is applied to the earth.

And 2 Peter 3;10 - 13, says,
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21;21, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Both the earth and heaven that exists now will be burned up, and there will be a new earth and a new heaven. The fire here represents the fire of the Holy Spirit for us in the new birth. In Matthew 3;11, John the baptist says, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

And the earth doesn't become a new earth until all three elements are fulfilled in it, blood, water, and fire.

2 Corinthians 5;17 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

This is a well known verse, but many professing Christians misunderstand the new birth, and misapply this verse. We are born again by following the message of Acts 2;38. And just like the earth doesn't become a new earth, a new creation, until all three elements are fulfilled in it, we also aren't born again and become a new creation in Christ until we have all three elements fulfilled in us, blood, water, and Spirit.

So God shows us all through the Bible how His plan of salvation is made up of the three elements of blood, water, and Spirit. And these are applied to our life by repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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  #23  
Old 07-08-2016, 03:58 PM
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Disciple4life Disciple4life is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

It's interesting when people get a revelation that they get to throw out all the rules of interpreting scripture.

Would you let your surgeon throw out his medical knowledge because God gave him a revelation?

Would you let the engineer that was designing your house throw out the rule book because God gave him a revelation?

Would you let your children go to a daycare/school were nobody received formal training but everyone had a revelation from God?

Not trying to be mean. I just think if we take the argument a little further it seems silly.

So I think we should all remember there are rules for a reason. Even when interpreting scripture.
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  #24  
Old 07-08-2016, 05:14 PM
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RonMurray RonMurray is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

You need to go back and read my other comments to see the information that led up to that. There is no rules of interpretation being thrown out. The divine revelation God had given me was in harmany with scriptures throughout the Bible. Also, God was the one who showed me that, it all came to me in a single instant. So God is the one you are criticizing for showing me that. And I gave scriptures to show it, so you're just saying that and lying against me.

P.S: You still have to go to church. But it needs to be the right one. You need to find one that teaches that Jesus is God and teaches the plan of salvation according to Acts 2:38, and teaches you to continue in the faith living according to the word of God in holiness. You need an Apostolic church.

Last edited by RonMurray; 07-08-2016 at 05:19 PM.
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  #25  
Old 07-08-2016, 05:56 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

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Originally Posted by RonMurray View Post

Ephesians 5;25 - 27.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Key Phrase: "washing of water by the word".

Key Word: "word".

"word" = rhema.


The Word of God: Logos and Rhema

"There are two primary Greek words that describe Scripture which are translated word in the New Testament. The first, logos, refers principally to the total inspired Word of God and to Jesus, Who is the living Logos."

"The second primary Greek word that describes Scripture is rhema, which refers to a word that is spoken and means “an utterance.” A rhema is a verse or portion of Scripture that the Holy Spirit brings to our attention with application to a current situation or need for direction."

--- "Advanced Training Institute International"


In Ephesians 5;25 & 26, it says that Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. And where it says, "washing of water by the word", some people will say that this isn't referring to baptism, and explain that water here is referring to the word, because it says " by the word". But how are we baptized by the word? By applying that word of baptism, like in Acts 2;38, where it says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The term "word" here in the Greek is "rhema", which means a specific word that's applied to a specifc need or situatuation. So it's talking about being washed by water by the word of baptism, or by the message, or instruction, or command, of baptism. 
.
This verse has to do with cleansing the church (those who have already been baptized) and not unbelievers coming to the obedience of the faith in baptism, in my opinion.
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  #26  
Old 07-08-2016, 07:26 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite. And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all. None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born. And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live. I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
(Ezekiel 16:3-14)
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  #27  
Old 07-08-2016, 07:33 PM
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RonMurray RonMurray is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

Believers together as a body are the church. It's talking about all the believers together as a whole, as the body of Christ, the church.

The term "word" is "rhema", which means a word that's applied. Washing of water by the word means actively applying water as intructed or commanded by a word in scripture. This is referring to the act of washing of water, meaning being baptized with water.

And in Jewish culture, the woman prepares for her mariage to the groom by bathing, and she had to be immersed completely under water, and takes on the name of groom before they're married. Baptism is a washig of the church in preparation for her marriage to Christ. And we take on the Lord's name by baptism in the name of Jesus.
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  #28  
Old 07-09-2016, 02:30 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

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Originally Posted by RonMurray View Post
Believers together as a body are the church. It's talking about all the believers together as a whole, as the body of Christ, the church.

The term "word" is "rhema", which means a word that's applied. Washing of water by the word means actively applying water as intructed or commanded by a word in scripture. This is referring to the act of washing of water, meaning being baptized with water.

And in Jewish culture, the woman prepares for her mariage to the groom by bathing, and she had to be immersed completely under water, and takes on the name of groom before they're married. Baptism is a washig of the church in preparation for her marriage to Christ. And we take on the Lord's name by baptism in the name of Jesus.
If this verse is written to the church, to people who have already been water baptized, then according to your interpretation every time a saint sins they must be water baptized.

The word can symbolize washing with water the outer body because when the word is received by a believer (someone who is part of the church) it works toward bringing them to repentance. When we repent, God forgives us according to 1 John 1:9.

The word that Paul sent in his epistle to the Corinthians caused this very thing to happen. The word was an instrument/agency through which a result came, "by the word". The word did not literally wash them or cleanse them for the applied blood of Jesus does that.

For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

Quote:
2 Cor 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter
.

If we are to understand the Ephesian's passage as speaking to water baptism ( which I suppose you could) how would Christ be able to present to himself a pure church (a church without sin) if they continue to sin after their initial water baptism unless there was a way to forgive sin without having to be repeated water baptized every time we sin?
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To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear

Last edited by mizpeh; 07-09-2016 at 02:49 AM.
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  #29  
Old 07-09-2016, 08:32 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: "washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5;25

well, one might apply water symbolically as in church baptism and be correct, surely, don't get me wrong, but it was in seeking a meaning for baptism by "fire" that may lead one back to people, and one's interactions with them. If you will accept it, there is a sense in which water baptism's importance may be revealed in the passage "...but He will baptize you with the Spirit and with fire," noting that Christ was yet baptized with water, albeit with a rather interesting remark that seems to indicate that it was symbolic, for a public declaration.

Also, 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you should be considered, wherein no water seems to have been involved, although one must reflect upon what "word" was spoken to them, but it had to have been signifying this "water" or Spirit, so it would seem to verify the interpretation of water as Spirit, while discounting actual immersion in water, which is still an important symbol.

so not to discount immersion in water, but i have trouble seeing it as the be-all end-all of baptism, and i have become convinced that there will be those "accepted" who never participated in the immersion ritual.
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  #30  
Old 07-09-2016, 07:38 PM
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Jesus gave himself for the church. that's his death. he laid down his life to have a church. like Adam who slept so God could make a wide from his side.

And he washed us in baptism into that death which is only efficacious by our faith in the word. It's about conversion. becoming the bride.
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