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  #31  
Old 03-06-2019, 05:58 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
With all due respect, I think you are maybe misunderstanding. I believe in this wholeheartedly, but lately I have struggled with some doubts. I pray, and fast, and do the other things you have mentioned. I'm just looking for somewhere to talk this stuff through without freaking out those who are close to me and giving them a false idea that I'm backsliding or something. We all have questions, don't we? Should we step down from leadership everytime we go through a difficult season?

EDIT: I guess the only real core doctrinal thing I disagree on is tithing, but I still give to support the church, and I think for a lot of people the number will be more than 10 percent. It's just that 10 percent is an arbitrary number and I don't think we should take scripture out of context to try and force the issue.
With this major of an issue yes I think you should go to your pastor and let him make the decision for you to stay in leadership or not.
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  #32  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:01 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
I was under the impression that there are a mix of different kinds of people here. Are you an ex-apostolic?
Never said that there are only ex apostolics on here but the majority are not apostolic hence “ a bunch “.
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  #33  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:09 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
Typically NT "tithing" is taught as a mandatory 10 percent. In reality there is no NT "tithing" just generous freewill giving, which I am behind 100%. God wants 100% from us.

Also I'm pretty sure facial hair was an official standard until very recently. Not that I personally care. It has definitely been enforced like an official standard in a lot of places until recently.
Thithing has always been in place even before the law. There was no “ fulfillment “ of a type and/or shadow of anything to do with thithing. Jesus mentioned it in the gospel and said “these have you ought to have done”. Unlike the sabbath that had a type and shadow and dealt with it totally different in the gospel when the situation arose.

Concerning facial hair. It’s just that a “ standard “ and a good one .
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  #34  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:49 PM
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Never said that there are only ex apostolics on here but the majority are not apostolic hence “ a bunch “.



Did you take a poll? Howd you come up with a "majority "?
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  #35  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:05 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Thithing has always been in place even before the law. There was no “ fulfillment “ of a type and/or shadow of anything to do with thithing. Jesus mentioned it in the gospel and said “these have you ought to have done”. Unlike the sabbath that had a type and shadow and dealt with it totally different in the gospel when the situation arose.

Concerning facial hair. It’s just that a “ standard “ and a good one .
This should be interesting! I didn’t know “thithing” has always been in place? Do you have scripture for that? Some of us like to quote scripture to support our statements. Even those few of us who are still Apostolic.
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  #36  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:33 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post

EDIT: I guess the only real core doctrinal thing I disagree on is tithing, but I still give to support the church, and I think for a lot of people the number will be more than 10 percent. It's just that 10 percent is an arbitrary number and I don't think we should take scripture out of context to try and force the issue.
False doctrine rarely will be found alone. The tithe doctrine usually has a twin brother, it is the sovereignty of the pastor doctrine, which will not be found far from the pastor gets the tithe doctrine. False doctrine begets false doctrine.

At least that’s been my experience.
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  #37  
Old 03-06-2019, 09:45 PM
Spirit&Truth Spirit&Truth is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Thithing has always been in place even before the law. There was no “ fulfillment “ of a type and/or shadow of anything to do with thithing. Jesus mentioned it in the gospel and said “these have you ought to have done”. Unlike the sabbath that had a type and shadow and dealt with it totally different in the gospel when the situation arose.

Concerning facial hair. It’s just that a “ standard “ and a good one .
Hoo-boy. I honestly don't have the time to delve into this at the moment, but if you can provide scripture to support this then I am open to my mind changing on this.

I personally taught and believed the tithing doctrine for a really long time. And I believe wholeheartedly that we must support the ministry through giving offerings, and for many of us spoiled Americans we can give over 10%, and if someone wants to give a baseline of 10%, great! But to teach that it is a God-mandated requirement for NT Christians to give 10% of every paycheck is such a huge stretch, and requires taking many scriptures out of context, from what I have studied. But I will change my mind if there is some secret scripture mandating it that has not been shown to me.
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  #38  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:36 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Genesis 14:18-24 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. (19) And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: (20) And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. (21) And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. (22) And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, (23) That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: (24) Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
The tithe story usually begins here with Abraham giving tithes to Melchizedek. This is further elaborated upon by the apostle in his epistle to the Hebrews:
Hebrews 7:4-10 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. (5) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: (6) But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. (7) And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. (8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. (9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
It is clear that Abraham gave tithes (tenths) to Melchizedek, the priest of God. The tithes were apparently taken from the spoils rather than from the goods that were recovered. The spoils would have been the "extras" that Abraham acquired in defeating the kings of the east, above and beyond the goods that were recovered. Those recovered goods were given back to their original owners, leaving the excess (the "spoils") from which a tenth was given to Melchizedek. Since the word tithes is plural, it seems that the spoils were divided into categories, and a tenth from each category was given. Whether the spoils included gold and other non-agricultural products we do not know.

Much ado is made of this story, but I think there is something that people miss. We may ask "Why does Moses include this particular anecdote concerning Abraham in his history of the Patriarchs?" It may be that Moses was intending to demonstrate that tithes were appropriately given to the priest of God, thus lending Patriarchal precedent for the Sinaitic regulations concerning tithing to the Levites and to the priests. But there is something that is brought forward by the apostle in his exposition of the Genesis account that many seem to overlook. Let's look a bit closer:
Hebrews 7:9-10 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
The apostle is saying that since Levi is descended from Abraham, and Abraham paid tithes, then Levi also (in a sense) paid tithes to Melchizedek. Now, Paul's purpose here of course is to show the superiority of the Melchizedek priesthood over that of the Levitical priesthood, and thus to show that Christ is a superior High Priest. But in doing so he reveals an idea, the idea that what a person does, his descendants do as well. It is the idea that there is a continuity between a person and their descendants, or between a person and his or her ancestors. This same concept is on display in Romans ch 5 where Paul speaks of Adam's relationship to mankind, and of Christ's relationship to mankind. "In Adam all die", expressing the idea that Adam's descendants somehow participated in Adam's disobedience. And "in Christ all shall be made alive", because by His act of obedience many are made righteous. In other words, what one does, the others do.

This of course does not mean that a person is "guilty" of some ancestor's sins, because Paul also says "for all have sinned". But this shows that by a person's act of sinning that person identifies with Adam and his sin, and participates in a sense with Adam. And thus, by having faith in Christ, we participate in a sense with Christ's act of obedience and thereby participate in the results of that obedience. This is also seen in Christ's condemnation of the scribes an Pharisees:
Matthew 23:29-32 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, (30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. (32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Here, the Lord affirms that by their unbelief, the scribes and Pharisees participate in the unbelief and sin of their ancestors who killed the prophets. The point is, there is a definite connection between a person and their ancestor, ratified by that person's adoption or rejection of the ancestor's character, values, deeds, etc. This is important for understanding where tithing comes from as a "law" for Israel.

(con't in next post)
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  #39  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:37 PM
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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A lot of folks look at Jacob and his promise to tithe as a sort of template or example for us to follow today. However, I think most people really have no idea what is actually going on in the text. So let's look at it:
Genesis 28:10-22 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. (11) And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. (12) And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (13) And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; (14) And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. (15) And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. (16) And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. (17) And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. (18) And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. (19) And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. (20) And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, (21) So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: (22) And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
So what actually happened here? God first promises to Jacob to give him and his descendants the land of Canaan. He also promises to increase his descendants, and to keep him safe on his journeys, and to bring him back to the Promised Land. Most importantly, ask yourself What did God promise to give Jacob? The land of Canaan. And then in response, Jacob vows to give the tenth to God "of all that thou givest me". In other words, Jacob promised to give a tenth back to God of all that God gives him, which as we have seen was the land of Canaan. To make this clearer, Jacob is vowing to give a tenth of the produce of the promised land back to God.

Now, the record of Jacob's journeys and return to the land of Canaan is well known. What is not so well known is the fact there is no record of Jacob ever fulfilling his vow. In fact, there is evidence in Scripture that Jacob never did actually fulfill this vow, at least not upon his return. Remember, Jacob got rather rich working for Laban. He increased greatly in goods and cattle. Yet, there is no record of him offering tithes upon his return. After his run-in with the men of Shechem, he embarks on a pilgrimage back to Bethel (where he had made his vow), and there he sets up an altar and pours a drink offering and an oil offering. But no tithe! (see Genesis 35)

Now, we earlier asked "Why did Moses include the anecdote about Abraham and Melchizedek?" Let us ask the same question about Jacob and his vow of tithing. Remember, Jacob vowed to give a tithe of all that the Lord would give him. And what did the Lord promise to give him? the land of Canaan. So it is obvious why he did not tithe of anything that he got in Syria, while in Laban's employ. Because that cattle and wealth was not the product of the land which God promised to give Jacob. The vow concerned the land (and its produce) which God promised to give Jacob.

So why did Moses include this account? Along with no account whatsoever of Jacob ever paying his tithes and making good on his vow? Let's look at something Moses said about the tithe:

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
A lot of people think that God just sort of came up with the idea for a ten percent tax on agricultural products, as a nifty means of supplying the Levites and priests with their sustenance. But closer inspection reveals something else going on. God says the tithe is His, it is holy unto the Lord. Something that is holy to the Lord is holy because it has been dedicated to the Lord. Which is exactly what Jacob vowed.

God promised to give the land of Canaan to Jacob. And Jacob vowed to give back a tenth of that land's produce (crops and herds grown on that land). This means that the tithe or tenth of all agricultural produce (crops and herds) was already sacred, devoted to God, it already belonged to God. why? by a vow concerning those things made by Jacob.

Now, Jacob himself never actually inherited full ownership of the Promised Land. but his descendants did. The promise made to him was fulfilled by his descendants taking possession of the land from the Canaanites several centuries later. Here we see that God counts what Jacob's descendants would do as if Jacob did it (inheriting the land of Canaan). In other words, there is that continuity again, between a man and his descendants. A promise made to Jacob, God fulfills to his kids. And a vow made by Jacob, God requires the fulfillment of it from them.

Now we see why Moses included the story about Jacob's vow. It was in order to show the legal basis for God's claim on the tithe of the produce of the land of Israel. The tithe was required because Jacob, their ancestor had made a vow, and that vow was still binding on his descendants.

And now we understand why Malachi asked "Shall a man rob God of His tithes?" The tithes belonged to God because Jacob vowed them to God.

(con't in next post)
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  #40  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:38 PM
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

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Now, as to the question regarding obligatory tithes from produce sourced outside the land of Israel. It would seem that normally, produce sourced from outside the land of Israel would not be subject to a mandatory tithe requirement, since Jacob never vowed a tenth of the agricultural produce of other lands (which he couldn't have done anyway, really, since they weren't given to him and weren't his to vow). The Sinaitic commandment concerning the tithe was enacted in order to fulfill Jacob's vow. He had vowed ten percent of the produce of the land, therefore it was dedicated to God and thus holy, it belonged to God. So Jacob's descendants, in whom Jacob would be given the land, would be required to fulfill their father's vow. Jacob would fulfill his vow in his children.

Israelites living in foreign lands would of course not be under obligation to pay a tithe on the agricultural produce generated in those lands - just as Jacob seemed to recognise no obligation to tithe anything he had gotten from Laban. Jacob's vow had nothing to do with foreign lands. Israelites living abroad would be living in someone else's land, subject to those foreign laws, vows, etc. Thus, no requirement to tithe that stuff to God.

Again, the obligatory nature of tithes depended upon Jacob's vow concerning the land of Israel. In fact, it may be that if Jacob had never made the vow he made, there would have been no requirement to tithe anything at all, to begin with.

Now, an interesting question arises concerning if and when Israelites obtained foreign lands by conquest (or by some other means). If they acquired a foreign land, and were not merely living in those foreign lands as strangers and pilgrims, but rather as the primary inhabitants or citizens, then it would seem the tithe requirement would kick in. The land would have been given to them by God. Thus, it would be considered to have been given to Jacob, and therefore possibly subject to the tithing vow.

In other words, did the two and a half tribes that settled on the east of Jordan have an obligation to pay tithes?
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