Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:55 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,772
Re: We're the Temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Brother, you have a edge about you that twists what people say and leans toward a harsh attitude.

God LOVES sinners and hates sin. You cannot separate the sin from the person. But the sin is not the person. I am not say that's "only sin". I am saying God hates the least sin more than we hate the most abominable sin. But you have to distinguish sin from the person. That is not to say , lest you twist THESE words now, that the sinner is bot going to hell. When you said Hitler is on his way to heaven if God loves the sinner, you twisted all I said. This has nothing to do with someone not going to hell because God loves them. The sin IS NOT the person. Paul said that sin, not himself, was the problem in his life. He said IN HIM was sin. He did not say sin was him.

Rom 7:17.. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me...

How could Paul say it was not himself but it was sin inside him that was the issue, thereby separating sin from the person if sin is the person.


Sin is the person????

That's a very distorted picture altogether.
explain how god love was shown in sodom after they would not repent. Also show me how god showed his love to the world after they would not get on the ark. But according to you god has ď levels ď of love. Iím sure you read you bible, you seen God Judge people in sin... if we can totally just separate it then why donít we all just go to heaven and be separate from it. But no we know it starts with our OWN lust that bring forth sin. You can convince me that God loves a serial pedophile. Thatís the dudes own lust causing that junk. Itís not the ď sin ď making him so that itís his perverted lust which is sin.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-17-2019, 01:58 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 36,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post

explain how god love was shown in sodom after they would not repent. Also show me how god showed his love to the world after they would not get on the ark. But according to you god has ď levels ď of love. Iím sure you read you bible, you seen God Judge people in sin... if we can totally just separate it then why donít we all just go to heaven and be separate from it. But no we know it starts with our OWN lust that bring forth sin. You can convince me that God loves a serial pedophile. Thatís the dudes own lust causing that junk. Itís not the ď sin ď making him so that itís his perverted lust which is sin.
Is nothing to do with showing love .

Who said judgment shows lack of love???

Too much straw men, like bro said.

I've never read such illogic. No one says love makes him not send the ones he loves to hell. It's because his love is distinct from actions, that he does send people to hell. You're not even reading the discussion.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-17-2019, 02:51 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Master ThreadKiller


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 20,780
Re: We're the Temple

Psalm 11:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Proverbs 6:

16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


Psalm 5:

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

These passages, as well as the one concerning Esau, prove that God does indeed hate some people. The argument that "hate" means "love less" is erroneous. If it were true, then it would follow that we are not to "love our neighbor less" and that the fear of the LORD is to "love evil less". Whatever "hate" means, God does, in fact, hate some people.

To suggest that "in Hebrew culture hate means something other than hate" doesn't actually change anything. The term doesn't change its meaning or force when used by God just because our modern sensibilities might be offended.

And what is its meaning, anyway?

hate verb
hated; hating
Definition of hate (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1 : to feel extreme enmity toward : to regard with active hostility
hates his country's enemies
2 : to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful
hated to have to meet strangers
hate hypocrisy
intransitive verb
: to express or feel extreme enmity or active hostility
harsh faces and hating eyes
— Katherine A. Porter
Hate, however, is not limited to intense emotions. Consider this:

Lev 19:17

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

In the above commandment, hating one's brethren in one's heart is manifested not by drooling eyes-rolled-in-the-back-of-the-head swinging a meat cleaver screaming for blood. Instead, it is manifested as simply choosing to remain silent and not rebuking them when they sin.

Both love and hate, Biblically, are not really emotions per se, but choices, and actions. John 3:16 doesn't say God loved the world "so much" but that God loved the world "in this manner", that He gave His Son. Love is an act more than a feeling, and so is hate.

Why would a person not rebuke someone for sin? Because they have positive feelings for them. They "love" them, and don't want to cause strife, an argument, or make the other person feel bad. They feel complacent towards the person, perhaps they are actually happy for them. But, Biblically, they actually HATE them.

So yes, God hates certain people. It has little to do with feelings, although God also abhors or "detests" certain people (see above). The same is true of God's love. His love is not mere feeling, sentimentality, emotion. It is ACTION, choice, relationship. He does "feel" various things towards those He loves, but those "feelings" are not in themselves "love".

There is no verse that says God loves the sinner but hates the sin, nor is there any verse that says we should do likewise. In fact, here is what Scripture says:

Psalm 139:

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

To hate is to consider someone as an enemy, to not seek their welfare, to support and look forward to their defeat and ruin. According to the Psalm, David (a man "after God's own heart") hated the enemies of the Lord by counting them as his enemies as well, and looked forward to their righteous doom. Would David have preferred them to repent? Of course!

God likewise has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but prefers them to repent (Ez 33:11). Nevertheless, He certainly wages war and executes judgment against His enemies.

In one sense, God loves everyone, because they have opportunity to repent, and He prefers the best for them. But in another sense, He is against, not for, the wicked, counts them as enemies, and will utterly destroy them., that is, He "hates" them.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/


Last edited by Esaias; 05-17-2019 at 02:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:11 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,772
Re: We're the Temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Psalm 11:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Proverbs 6:

16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


Psalm 5:

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

These passages, as well as the one concerning Esau, prove that God does indeed hate some people. The argument that "hate" means "love less" is erroneous. If it were true, then it would follow that we are not to "love our neighbor less" and that the fear of the LORD is to "love evil less". Whatever "hate" means, God does, in fact, hate some people.

To suggest that "in Hebrew culture hate means something other than hate" doesn't actually change anything. The term doesn't change its meaning or force when used by God just because our modern sensibilities might be offended.

And what is its meaning, anyway?

hate verb
hated; hating
Definition of hate (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1 : to feel extreme enmity toward : to regard with active hostility
hates his country's enemies
2 : to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful
hated to have to meet strangers
hate hypocrisy
intransitive verb
: to express or feel extreme enmity or active hostility
harsh faces and hating eyes
ó Katherine A. Porter
Hate, however, is not limited to intense emotions. Consider this:

Lev 19:17

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

In the above commandment, hating one's brethren in one's heart is manifested not by drooling eyes-rolled-in-the-back-of-the-head swinging a meat cleaver screaming for blood. Instead, it is manifested as simply choosing to remain silent and not rebuking them when they sin.

Both love and hate, Biblically, are not really emotions per se, but choices, and actions. John 3:16 doesn't say God loved the world "so much" but that God loved the world "in this manner", that He gave His Son. Love is an act more than a feeling, and so is hate.

Why would a person not rebuke someone for sin? Because they have positive feelings for them. They "love" them, and don't want to cause strife, an argument, or make the other person feel bad. They feel complacent towards the person, perhaps they are actually happy for them. But, Biblically, they actually HATE them.

So yes, God hates certain people. It has little to do with feelings, although God also abhors or "detests" certain people (see above). The same is true of God's love. His love is not mere feeling, sentimentality, emotion. It is ACTION, choice, relationship. He does "feel" various things towards those He loves, but those "feelings" are not in themselves "love".

There is no verse that says God loves the sinner but hates the sin, nor is there any verse that says we should do likewise. In fact, here is what Scripture says:

Psalm 139:

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

To hate is to consider someone as an enemy, to not seek their welfare, to support and look forward to their defeat and ruin. According to the Psalm, David (a man "after God's own heart") hated the enemies of the Lord by counting them as his enemies as well, and looked forward to their righteous doom. Would David have preferred them to repent? Of course!

God likewise has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but prefers them to repent (Ez 33:11). Nevertheless, He certainly wages war and executes judgment against His enemies.

In one sense, God loves everyone, because they have opportunity to repent, and He prefers the best for them. But in another sense, He is against, not for, the wicked, counts them as enemies, and will utterly destroy them., that is, He "hates" them.
Very good explanation
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-17-2019, 04:16 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 36,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
To suggest that "in Hebrew culture hate means something other than hate" doesn't actually change anything. The term doesn't change its meaning or force when used by God just because our modern sensibilities might be offended.



There is no verse that says God loves the sinner but hates the sin, nor is there any verse that says we should do likewise. In fact, here is what Scripture says:
that's a far better explanation than we've been hearing, but the fact remains that the Bible does use hate in the Hebrew culture is loving less.

Luke 14:..26....If any..man..come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Hating our parents is loving them less than God. Not actually hating them.

Rom 5:8....But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

If dying for someone shows no greater love, and Christ died for us while we were sinners, then he loved all sinners. And to say he hates some for their sin means Christ did not die for those some because he did not love some.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:30 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Master ThreadKiller


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 20,780
Re: We're the Temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
that's a far better explanation than we've been hearing, but the fact remains that the Bible does use hate in the Hebrew culture is loving less.
Then when you say "God hates sin" it means He loves it "less". Whatever hate means, God "hates" all workers of iniquity and He "hates" the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, etc, with whatever meaning it is you are ascribing to the term "hate".

Quote:
Luke 14:..26....If any..man..come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Hating our parents is loving them less than God. Not actually hating them.
No, it means we must choose God rather than family, if family is opposed to Christ. Hate, in this passage, is an example of hyperbole, rhetorical exagerration for the purpose of stressing an important contrast. Otherwise, we are to " hate the sin" in the same way we are to "hate" our family members. Do you hate sin the way you hate family, that is, do you "love it less than you love God"?

Since you are saying hate in Hebrew means "not what we call hate" in E glish, what then is the Hebrew term for the "hate" you seem to be arguing against?

Quote:
Rom 5:8....But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

If dying for someone shows no greater love, and Christ died for us while we were sinners, then he loved all sinners. And to say he hates some for their sin means Christ did not die for those some because he did not love some.
You are saying that God doesn't hate anyone, yet the Bible plainly says He does. Whatever the solution to the seeming paradox, it doesn't consist in "God doesn't hate anyone".
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-17-2019, 06:58 PM
Ehud Ehud is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 394
Re: We're the Temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
You are saying that God doesn't hate anyone, yet the Bible plainly says He does. Whatever the solution to the seeming paradox, it doesn't consist in "God doesn't hate anyone".
Good evening, Bro. Esaias!

Hate canít be intended as we commonly understand it though, right? Wouldnít that mean God is doing what He has told us not to do?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:18 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,772
Re: We're the Temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehud View Post
Good evening, Bro. Esaias!

Hate canít be intended as we commonly understand it though, right? Wouldnít that mean God is doing what He has told us not to do?
Then is ď Love ď a different meaning than commonly understood?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:59 PM
Ehud Ehud is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 394
Re: We're the Temple

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Then is ď Love ď a different meaning than commonly understood?
At this point Iím hoping the answer is Ďyesí because if it isnít, iím even more confused than when we started. That seems to be a recurring theme though. Ha!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:11 PM
Ehud Ehud is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 394
Re: We're the Temple

Bro. Esaias has pointed out that David hated the enemies of the Lord, but we are told to love our enemies. If love and hate are true antonyms, and those statements are to be taken literally and at face value, we would seem to have quite a conundrum. I’m certain it can be reconciled, but I’d be lying if I said I could explain it. That’s why I am asking you fine folks.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Third Temple Amanah Fellowship Hall 7 09-18-2018 10:30 AM
In His Temple phareztamar Deep Waters 0 06-30-2013 09:30 PM
When Will the Third Temple Be Built Evang.Benincasa Fellowship Hall 274 12-29-2011 01:30 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.