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  #91  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:18 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Yep, I'm convinced you don't understand what's being said in this thread. You need to quit using "we" the way you do. I'm Oneness, and have understood the Logos doctrine almost my entire time as a Christian. And obviously I do NOT believe as you do, that the Logos is created.

Bernard is not who I go to in order to verify truth.

YOUR doctrine is the Logos was God's physical form. More of that "Jesus is God in a body" error. If the Logos is God's visible FORM, then it is a skin in which God exists. And the Logos being made flesh would mean God's skin became human, NOT that GOD HIMSELF became human.

Again, the Logos IS GOD therefore not created. Simple. Not sure why you can't accept that. Jesus is NOT God's visible form made flesh. Jesus is GOD made flesh.

I am now certain you do not understand the BIBLICAL Logos doctrine.
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  #92  
Old 09-12-2019, 12:54 PM
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Re: Logos


Wow!
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  #93  
Old 09-12-2019, 02:16 PM
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Re: Logos

Elder Drysdale
Quote:
A MODERN DAY WITNESS TO THE LOGOS DOCTRINE

A very interesting discussion concerning the Word appears in Dr. E.W. Bullinger's previously cited "Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament." The doctrine Dr. Bullinger brings forth, although he is an ardent Trinitarian, is almost word-for-word the Oneness position on Christ as the Word, or Angel of God. Here is what he says:

"The Godhead is 'Spirit' (john 4:24) and as Spirit has no likeness to matter, God Himself took some creature form, (not human) before He created anything, in order that creation might have a mediator, or a means of communion with Deity. Hence, Christ is said to have been, 'In the Beginning' (John 1:1); 'before all things' (Co. 1:17); 'The Firstborn of every Creature' (Col. 1:15); 'The Beginning of the Creation of God' (Rev. 3:14); and hence, "In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily' (Col. 2:9).

"Elohim, therefore, is the Logos or Word, who took creaturehood, to create, (as afterwards took humanity, to redeem). As such He is the Father's 'Servant,' 'Angel,' or 'Messenger.' (Elohim denotes His being set apart to the office with an oath; Messiah or Christ, His anointing to the work of redemption; Angel or Messenger, referring to his actual dispatch; Servant, with reference to the service actually to be done). He appeared to Adam and the Patriarchs, (Gen. 17, 17, 18, 21, 22, 32; Ex. 3, 6; Joshua 5:13-15 with Ex. 23:23; Judges 13, etc., etc.) This view only makes permanent that which most commentators assume as being only temporary.

"His mission in connection with creation was to manifest Deity to His creatures, (Prov. 8:22-31). His work was begun with Adam (made in His likeness and image), but the Fall interrupted the mission, and it was necessarily suspended. Then 'the Word was made flesh' (John 1:14) in order that He might redeem creation from the curse. Made flesh in order that He might suffer and die (See Heb. 10:5, Ps 40:6; Isa. 42:40, Philip. 2:7)." (Bullinger, p. 896-897).

Oneness theologians could find no argument with this marvelous discussion from the pen of a well known and well respected Trinitarian Bible expositor and author.
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  #94  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:20 PM
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Re: Logos

Elder Drysdale:

IS THE WORD IN ANY SENSE ETERNAL?

The Word of God, as God's creature form (Bullinger, p. 896) came forth from the omnipotent Spirit in the dateless past before the :"Foundation of the world." The emergence of the Angel of Jehovah as God's "celestial body" and "mediator" at this remote time is scripturally assured for us (Micah 5:2, Prov. 8:23; John 17:24). But is there any sense in which it could be said that the Word was eternal?

Yes, in the sense of having existed in God's mind or foreknowledge as an unexpressed thought, destined to take substantial form in time. The Word did not exist eternally as a "distinct" divine Second Person in the Godhead. There was no "persons" at all, just Spirit, until the Jehovah Angel was brought forth as God's Person. And it was in this one and only Person of the Word that God took up residence and deposited his divine nature.
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  #95  
Old 09-12-2019, 04:54 PM
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Elder Drysdale
...is wrong.
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  #96  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:16 PM
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Re: Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Elder Drysdale:

IS THE WORD IN ANY SENSE ETERNAL?

The Word of God, as God's creature form (Bullinger, p. 896) came forth from the omnipotent Spirit in the dateless past before the :"Foundation of the world." The emergence of the Angel of Jehovah as God's "celestial body" and "mediator" at this remote time is scripturally assured for us (Micah 5:2, Prov. 8:23; John 17:24). But is there any sense in which it could be said that the Word was eternal?

Yes, in the sense of having existed in God's mind or foreknowledge as an unexpressed thought, destined to take substantial form in time. The Word did not exist eternally as a "distinct" divine Second Person in the Godhead. There was no "persons" at all, just Spirit, until the Jehovah Angel was brought forth as God's Person. And it was in this one and only Person of the Word that God took up residence and deposited his divine nature.
Is this what you are saying, Michael?

The Word, the expression was not human form it was an angelic form. He appeared to Abraham, He was in the fiery furnace. The expression God used in the Old Testament was inadequate to redeem us from our sins and so He became flesh.
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  #97  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:20 PM
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Re: Logos

The apostle taught us that in the beginning was the Word. Not "in the beginning God brought forth the word", or "in the beginning God created the Word." No, the APOSTOLIC teaching is in the beginning was the Word. The Word pertained to God and WAS GOD. The God who was in the beginning back in Genesis 1:1 was none other than THE WORD.

The apostle continues by emphasising that all things were made by this Word. He clarifies, NOTHING was made except by the Word. He is pointing out that the Word is the SOURCE ("the beginning") of all Creation. This is nothing less than a clear declaration that the Word WAS NOT MADE. Rather, the Word is the Maker of all things. And you would do well to grasp that and believe that, because it is the Truth.

John's description is designed to rule out the idea that the Word is a mere creature, which it would be if it were created, formed, made, emanated, proceeded, or any other such term used by the ignorant and foolish speculators (who call themselves theologians, but who cannot grasp the LOGOS of God, the very meaning of "theology"). He is literally pointing out the Word is UNMADE, not made, not created, but is GOD HIMSELF who THEN (in time) became flesh as the Son of God. Yet, professing themselves to be wise, the speculators become fools, insisting against Scripture and reason (thus insisting against the LOGOS, which is what both Scripture and reason are)... they insist against reason and Scripture that the Word is created and formed and made. And thus they take their first steps on the road to Nicaea.
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  #98  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:28 PM
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The apostle taught us that in the beginning was the Word. Not "in the beginning God brought forth the word", or "in the beginning God created the Word." No, the APOSTOLIC teaching is in the beginning was the Word. The Word pertained to God and WAS GOD. The God who was in the beginning back in Genesis 1:1 was none other than THE WORD.

The apostle continues by emphasising that all things were made by this Word. He clarifies, NOTHING was made except by the Word. He is pointing out that the Word is the SOURCE ("the beginning") of all Creation. This is nothing less than a clear declaration that the Word WAS NOT MADE. Rather, the Word is the Maker of all things. And you would do well to grasp that and believe that, because it is the Truth.

John's description is designed to rule out the idea that the Word is a mere creature, which it would be if it were created, formed, made, emanated, proceeded, or any other such term used by the ignorant and foolish speculators (who call themselves theologians, but who cannot grasp the LOGOS of God, the very meaning of "theology"). He is literally pointing out the Word is UNMADE, not made, not created, but is GOD HIMSELF who THEN (in time) became flesh as the Son of God. Yet, professing themselves to be wise, the speculators become fools, insisting against Scripture and reason (thus insisting against the LOGOS, which is what both Scripture and reason are)... they insist against reason and Scripture that the Word is created and formed and made. And thus they take their first steps on the road to Nicaea.

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  #99  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:32 PM
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Is this what you are saying, Michael?

The Word, the expression was not human form it was an angelic form. He appeared to Abraham, He was in the fiery furnace. The expression God used in the Old Testament was inadequate to redeem us from our sins and so He became flesh.
Yes.
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  #100  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:35 PM
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Re: Logos

Is the Angel of Jehovah created? NO. While the particular manifesting appearance is obviously created (as the pillar of fire, the man who talked with Abraham and Sarah, the man who wrestled with Jacob, etc), the ANGEL OF YHVH is not merely the skin, flame, smoky cloud, or vocal harmonics of the still small voice. THOSE are created, and are to the Logos what the skin of a man is to the man. Or rather, what the man's clothes are to the man. Temporary physical phenomena by which the Word interacts with people.

But the Word was GOD, it is a term for God expressing Himself, as well as for what it is that is being expressed.

Consider the Spirit. That is God interacting with creation, expressing Divine Will and Power. Is the Spirit also created? Formed? Made? Continue on the path of a created Word, and you may find yourself or your disciples confessing a formed created Spirit. And you or they will then be fully prepared to sit at the feet of Athanasius.
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Last edited by Esaias; 09-12-2019 at 06:05 PM.
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