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  #31  
Old 09-07-2019, 08:46 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The only thing I would say is I do not think the Logos was created. Rather, the Logos is God expressing Himself, God's manner of existing or operating within and with His creation.

That Christ is the "beginning of the creation of God" I do not understand as being "the first thing God created", but rather as the Source or Origin of the creation.

Christ is the wisdom of God. God did not create wisdom, per se, because before wisdom He wouldn't have any wisdom by which to create anything, much less wisdom. Wisdom came forth from God, meaning wisdom is an intrinsic characteristic of God. Therefore, divine wisdom is eternal and always was with God and a part of His attributes.

That God created all things by His Son means all things were created by means of the One whom we know as the man from Galilee, Jesus, who is the Messiah. Not that a Son existed prior to creation to whom was delegated the task of creating.

I think using terminology like "the Logos was the first thing God made" is close, if not exactly, the doctrine of both Tertullian and Arius, contra the Monarchian Oneness believers.

Other than that, good study.
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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Logos Christology (Christ as the logos of God) is very closely connected to Spirit Christology (Christ as Spirit of God) and Pneumatology (doctrine of the Holy Spirit).

Logos means literally a word, but encompasses two basic core ideas. 1, the concept or idea expressed by a "word", and 2 the word as actually expressed (spoken). A logos is an idea expressed or communicated (mainly by voice or speaking).

Spirit (pneuma, or ruach) is properly breath or wind (moving air). Now, breathing out does not in itself communicate information or ideas. The vocal chords must be vibrated etc to cause the air (breath or pneuma, "spirit") to be modified into sound, intelligible sound that communicates an idea (speech or words).

So the Logos gives expression or form to the breath or pneuma. It gives that pneuma shape, makes it MEAN something. It gives personality to the pneuma.

The Logos then is God's Spirit being expressed in a form or with personality. Thus, Jesus is the personality if you will of the Spirit, and thus of God. The Logos being incarnated in human nature (flesh) is the Son, Jesus Christ. This enfleshment makes physical and human the personal expression of God. The man is thus the express image of God's PERSON. God's personality, expressed (logos) in human nature (the Son).

Logos is both "the Divine Plan or Idea" AND the interacting self-communicating of God to His creation. And the Logos was made flesh (human). God was manifested in flesh. And the Lord is that SPIRIT.
Don't forget these two posts for consideration. The Hellenized Diaspora Judeans would of totally understood the Λόγος, as described above.
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  #32  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:42 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos

Logos teaching by Mark August.

Academy Of Christian Theological Studies. A.C.T.S.

Biblically:

Though there are many more scriptures that can be addressed on top of the passages specifically provided here, I feel it is best to provide these choice few and encourage the reader to study the Bible to find additional supportive verses.

-Ph 2:6 (New Testament)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

-Is 43:10 (Old Testament)
"...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

"from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
-Eph 3:9 KJB

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"
-Col 1:12-19 KJB

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."
-Hebrews 1:1-6 KJB

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
-John 1:1-3, 14 KJB

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
-Rev 3:14 KJB

“The LORD formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
Before the mountains were formed,
before the hills, I was born—
before he had made the earth and fields
and the first handfuls of soil.
I was there when he established the heavens,
when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
I was there when he set the clouds above,
when he established springs deep in the earth.
I was there when he set the limits of the seas,
so they would not spread beyond their boundaries.
And when he marked off the earth’s foundations,
I was the architect at his side.
I was his constant delight,
rejoicing always in his presence.
And how happy I was with the world he created;
how I rejoiced with the human family!"
-Proverbs 8:22-31 NLT

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
-1st John 1:1-3 KJB
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  #33  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:54 PM
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Re: Logos

Mark August

Academy Of Christian Theological Studies. A.C.T.S.

Part 2

The Angel of the Theophany:

This angel is spoken of as "the angel of Yahweh," and "the angel of the presence (or face) of Yahweh." The following passages contain references to this angel: Ge 16:7 ff--the angel and Hagar; Ge 18--Abraham intercedes with the angel for Sodom; Ge 22:11 ff--the angel interposes to prevent the sacrifice of Isaac; Gen 24:7; Gen 24:40(refs2)--Abraham sends Eliezer and promises the angel's protection; Ge 31:11 ff--the angel who appears to Jacob says "I am the God of Beth-el"; Ge 32:24 ff--Jacob wrestles with the angel and says, "I have seen God face to face"; Ge 48:15 f--Jacob speaks of God and the angel as identical; Ex 3(compare Ac 7:30 ff)--the angel appears to Moses in the burning bush; Exod 13:21; Exod 14:19 (refs2)(compare Nu 20:16)--God or the angel leads Israel out of Egypt; Ex 23:20 ff--the people are commanded to obey the angel; Ex 32:34-33:17 (compare Isa 63:9)--Moses pleads for the presence of God with His people; Jos 5:13-6:2--the angel appears to Joshua; Jud 2:1-5--the angel speaks to the people; Jud 6:11 ff--the angel appears to Gideon.
-ISBE

I would add walking with Adam and Eve, walking with Enoch, Eating with Abraham, in the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrew young men, and Melchizedek, and talking with the parents of Sampson, etc…

"The doctrine of the Incarnation, which speaks of God visiting us and living among us in the person of Yeshua the Messiah, is nothing other than the most thorough explanation of the many theophanies (meaning, divine appearances) of YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures."
-Ref: "7 Secrets of the Real Messiah", pg5, Dr. M Brown Phd
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  #34  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:04 PM
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Re: Logos

Mark August

Academy Of Christian Theological Studies. A.C. T.S.

Part 3



Doctrinal Development:

In John 1, Logos, a Greek philosophy term, was used by John to explain to the Greek speaking world of his day the Orthodox Jewish concept of Memra or Shekhinah.

The writing of Heraclitus (535– 475 B.C.) was the first place where the word logos was used in ancient Greek philosophy. He spoke of a cosmic conscience or abstract thought that held the universe together. Of course philosophy, in part, employs the co-mingling of religious knowledge from around the world and Logos was sourced from the ancient Jewish concept of Memra.

In ancient Orthodox Jewish thought, Memra or Shekhinah, was the body of YHWH or vehicle through which YHWH is seen. They viewed the “beginning” as encompassing the moment at or just before creation, and taught that the image (Memra, Shekhinah) of YHWH was present “with God” at this time and used to create all things.
-Ref: Talmud

This shows that an individual is spot on with ancient Jewish teaching when linking John 1:1 and Gen 1:1. In reality, these Jewish principles of the creation story are exactly what John was referencing in John 1.

"…in Jewish thought in the Second Temple era and for a thousand years beyond among traditionalists and free-thinkers, the Memra or Logos was broadly considered....the means to God’s Self-Revelation..."
-Dr. Raymond L. Gannon, Ph.D,
Ref: YESHUA: THE ETERNAL MEMRA
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  #35  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:05 PM
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Anybody hear that Mark August believes oneness and trinity are compatible? He told me once. Is he on this forum?
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  #36  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:18 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Anybody hear that Mark August believes oneness and trinity are compatible? He told me once. Is he on this forum?
His view is that they both once viewed the Logos as coming forth from God before or at creation. He teaches the Logos doctrine was part of the Oneness message Monarchianism in the beginning and that later in time the Trins perverted the Logos into a SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL PERSON.

In no way is Mark August a Trinitarian. He is fully Oneness. He has an uphill battle to fight because of the present day Oneness error of rejecting God had a form in the OT.

Mark is not on this forum.

I have put some excepts of his teaching here to show there is movement among Oneness circles on this topic.

He has written much more on this matter showing historically the place of the Logos in several early strands of Christians and how the true doctrine of Logos was perverted.

Quote:
Mark August:

Due to the historical evidence, and after exercising due diligence in research, it is my assertion that the concept of a Pre-Incarnate LOGOS being begotten in the beginning, much like the practice of Pentecostalism, was carried over from Monarchianism into the developing thoughts of Proto-Trinitarianism in the 2nd-3rd Centuries and into Arianism in the late 3rd and 4th Centuries.
For much more go here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3771...4593315896590/

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 09-09-2019 at 10:33 PM.
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  #37  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:52 PM
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Re: Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
His view is that they both once viewed the Logos as coming forth from God before or at creation. He teaches the Logos doctrine was part of the Oneness message Monarchianism in the beginning and that later in time the Trins perverted the Logos into a SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL PERSON.

In no way is Mark August a Trinitarian. He is fully Oneness. He has an uphill battle to fight because of the present day Oneness error of rejecting God had a form in the OT.

Mark is not on this forum.

I have put some excepts of his teaching here to show there is movement among Oneness circles on this topic.

He has written much more on this matter showing historically the place of the Logos in several early strands of Christians and how the true doctrine of Logos was perverted.



For much more go here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3771...4593315896590/
I know he is oneness, but I told him that oneness and trinity cannot be compatible. He doesn't believe trinity, but he does actually think they can get along with common ground. When I said they can never be compatible, he told me I had a very dismal outlook on the issue. He is striving to get the oneness and trinitarian movements to fellowship together.
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  #38  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:07 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
His view is that they both once viewed the Logos as coming forth from God before or at creation. He teaches the Logos doctrine was part of the Oneness message Monarchianism in the beginning and that later in time the Trins perverted the Logos into a SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL PERSON.

In no way is Mark August a Trinitarian. He is fully Oneness. He has an uphill battle to fight because of the present day Oneness error of rejecting God had a form in the OT.

Mark is not on this forum.

I have put some excepts of his teaching here to show there is movement among Oneness circles on this topic.

He has written much more on this matter showing historically the place of the Logos in several early strands of Christians and how the true doctrine of Logos was perverted.



For much more go here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3771...4593315896590/
The Logos was not "begotten". The Logos was "in the beginning" and "was GOD". The "begetting" error is what gave birth to Trinitarian thinking (see Tertullian's writings for the early development of the "begotten Logos" error).
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  #39  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:15 PM
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I know he is oneness, but I told him that oneness and trinity cannot be compatible. He doesn't believe trinity, but he does actually think they can get along with common ground. When I said they can never be compatible, he told me I had a very dismal outlook on the issue. He is striving to get the oneness and trinitarian movements to fellowship together.
He is trying to get them to have discourse that they may come into the truth. Not much will be done if we never talk.
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  #40  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:17 PM
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
He is trying to get them to have discourse that they may come into the truth. Not much will be done if we never talk.
Talk is one thing, but he thinks they are compatible. He said something odd to me about LOGOS. Cannot recall. I did not agree with him on that
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