Logos

[Michael The Disciple]

The glory of the Lord in the OT is yet another proof that God had a form.

This is from a thread I did here in 2008.

Re: The Mediator In The Old Testament
10: And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud. Exodus 16:10

What was the Glory of YHWH? We will get there after some scripture to prepare us.

15: And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
16: And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17: And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
18: And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights. Exodue 24:15-18

6: And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the LORD shall appear unto you. Leviticus 9:6

23: And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the people. Leviticus 9:23

10: But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel. Numbers 14:10

42: And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared. Numbers 16:42

This is not an entire list of scripture that speaks of the Glory of YHWH. And I realize that this is not the only context the glory of the Lord is written in. But these are sufficient for my purpose.

The cloud that went with Israel contained something called "the Glory of YHWH". I believe it had form and was YHWH himself in visible manifestation.

The Glory of YHWH interacted with Israel concerning all they did. Was this glory personal? Look at what Ezekiel saw when allowed to see into Heaven!

26: And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27: And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28: As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake. Ezekiel 1:26-28

Ezekiel said the Glory of YHWH had a LIKENESS! Verse 26 says it looked like a MAN. Verse 27 indicates he had fire up his body and down his body. He was sitting on THE THRONE OF HEAVEN!

We see in the strongest terms the Glory of YHWH was the bodily presence/form/image of God. This accompanied the Children of Israel for a long time when they left Egypt. It led them from there to and through the wilderness.

Ezekiel saw it again:

23: Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face. Ezekiel 3:23

He has another encounter with it/him:

2: And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
3: And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
4: And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
5: So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
6: And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7: And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. Ezekiel 43:2-7

So we see the Glory of the Lord was actually the Lord himself.

Brief explanation****

YHWH in his basic essence is omnipresent spirit filling the Universe.

24: Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. Jer. 23:24

As such he cannot be seen by creation. Thus he formed an image of himself at creation out of his own omnipresent spirit to be his visible representation to creation. This is seen both by the fact that he travelled with Israel and was visible to them as the "Glory of YHWH" on Earth. Also in Heaven Ezekiel saw this same IMAGE OF YHWH sitting on the throne!

[Michael The Disciple]

The "glory of YHWH" and Moses.

Numbers 12:1-8

1And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it. 3(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.) 4And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out. 5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Note that YHWH came down.....IN....the pillar of the cloud.

In no way does scripture teach this cloud was a theophany. It was the Lords form or image INSIDE THE CLOUD that was the theophany.

Note the YHWH says Moses spoke with him face to face and he beheld the SIMILITUDE OF YHWH.

What does similitude mean?

The Hebrew means "something portioned". "Fashioned out". Embodiment. Likeness, form, or image.

You get the point. God had a visible form inside of the glory cloud. From it the omnipresent Spirit spoke with Moses but not to Aaron and Miriam.

This is the same thing John spoke of as the Logos. The "expression" of the omnipresent Spirit. The same thing as the Angel Of YHWH.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Brief explanation****

YHWH in his basic essence is omnipresent spirit filling the Universe.

24: Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. Jer. 23:24

As such he cannot be seen by creation. Thus he formed an image of himself at creation out of his own omnipresent spirit to be his visible representation to creation. This is seen both by the fact that he travelled with Israel and was visible to them as the "Glory of YHWH" on Earth. Also in Heaven Ezekiel saw this same IMAGE OF YHWH sitting on the throne!

I don't know why you ruin such excellent teaching with this silly conclusion (NOWHERE stated or taught in Scripture, and expressly DENIED by Scripture in many places, as I already showed) concerning God "forming an image of Himself out of His own omnipresent Spirit." That doesn't even make sense, how do you form something "out of" omnipresent Holy Spirit? You were doing great until this one sticking point. Which seems you are putting down stakes on this one point. THIS is what you seem adamant about spreading, that the Logos is CREATED. Why is that?

Nobody who knows Oneness is going to accept that. Only twoness, Arians, Jehovah Witnesses, binitarians, unitarians, and uneducated trinitarians are going to fall for it. What gives?

[Esaias]

The Logos is God expressing Himself. It is a function of His Divine nature and reality. It is not a created thing. NOTHING - N O T H I N G - that was made was made by anyone OTHER than the Logos. So if the Logos "began to exist" (was made, formed, begotten, etc) it was made formed or begotten BY THE LOGOS. Hello? The Logos formed itself? Made itself? Begat itself?

No, in the beginning was... What? Who? THE LOGOS. There is no "before" the beginning.

The Word is not merely "the body" God used in theophanies. The Word IS THE GOD WHO APPEARED AS A THEOPHANY.

If one reads that last sentence over and over they MIGHT discover ONENESS.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Logos is God expressing Himself. It is a function of His Divine nature and reality. It is not a created thing. NOTHING - N O T H I N G - that was made was made by anyone OTHER than the Logos. So if the Logos "began to exist" (was made, formed, begotten, etc) it was made formed or begotten BY THE LOGOS. Hello? The Logos formed itself? Made itself? Begat itself?

No, in the beginning was... What? Who? THE LOGOS. There is no "before" the beginning.

The Word is not merely "the body" God used in theophanies. The Word IS THE GOD WHO APPEARED AS A THEOPHANY.

If one reads that last sentence over and over they MIGHT discover ONENESS.

August wants to find a bridge of common ground between Oneness and trinity, and he feels his idea of the begotten logos is it. I rejected that when talking to him.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Logos is God expressing Himself. It is a function of His Divine nature and reality. It is not a created thing. NOTHING - N O T H I N G - that was made was made by anyone OTHER than the Logos. So if the Logos "began to exist" (was made, formed, begotten, etc) it was made formed or begotten BY THE LOGOS. Hello? The Logos formed itself? Made itself? Begat itself?

No, in the beginning was... What? Who? THE LOGOS. There is no "before" the beginning.

The Word is not merely "the body" God used in theophanies. The Word IS THE GOD WHO APPEARED AS A THEOPHANY.

If one reads that last sentence over and over they MIGHT discover ONENESS.

THANK YOU

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't know why you ruin such excellent teaching with this silly conclusion (NOWHERE stated or taught in Scripture, and expressly DENIED by Scripture in many places, as I already showed) concerning God "forming an image of Himself out of His own omnipresent Spirit."

What else would the eternal, omnipresent Spirit of God have to form an image of himself from EXCEPT HIMSELF?

Isaiah 43:10

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God FORMED, neither shall there be after me.

Elder Drysdale:

Christ Himself may have been speaking of his beginning as Word of Jehovah Angel in a number of statements He made. These statements have a cryptic and mystifying ring to them and may be capable of deeper interpretation than what we have accorded them.

"Jesus said unto them, If God were you Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God..." (John 8:42).

When did Jesus "proceed forth" from God? Could it have been when He emerged from the Father as the Word, or God's Image, in the dateless past? We know when He "proceeded forth" from Mary as the Son of God, for the Scriptures say:

"God sent forth His Son made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4).

But where does the Bible say "He proceeded forth" as the Word of God? Perhaps John 8:42 provides the Bible answer. In one of his last discussions with the disciples Christ says:

"For the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God" (John 16:27).

What is this "coming out from God" that Jesus is speaking of? Obviously it is the same as his "proceeding forth" and is a reference to the time when He, as the Word, first made his appearance "before all ages," even "before the worlds were." For He was God's visible form or Temple before anything was created. The first thing God fashioned was a body for Himself; this was the "beginning of the Creation of God" and the "first born of all creation." In this body God could dwell and "incarnate" Himself and thus have a Mediator for all his subsequent creation.

Nobody who knows Oneness is going to accept that. Only twoness, Arians, Jehovah Witnesses, binitarians, unitarians, and uneducated trinitarians are going to fall for it. What gives?

Really? I accepted it. You might point me out as one of the "uneducated".

But what about G. T. Haywood? One of the early pioneers of the modern Oneness faith.

John Patterson? Wrote one of the earliest books on Oneness out there, renowned in earlier UPC circles.

John Ekstat? From whom I indirectly heard this teaching? Taught in 2 UPC Bible colleges and Pastored in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Irvin Baxter? Oneness teacher with probably the ear of more people today than any Apostolic minister.

And IF......Arians and Trins are brought into Oneness through this teaching, as I was, great!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

August wants to find a bridge of common ground between Oneness and trinity, and he feels his idea of the begotten logos is it. I rejected that when talking to him.

HIS IDEA?

I was preaching this from 1980. Drysdale I assume was teaching it before me. Ekstat taught it before Drysdale, on and on.

When you reject this truth you are putting a gap between YOURSELF and Biblical Oneness.

[Michael The Disciple]

Elder Drysdale

In his final prayer Christ says:

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee..." (John 17:8).

"Came out" as the "Firstbegotten," the "Image of the invisible God," is what he meant! He "came out" from Mary as the "form of man" in 4 B.C. But He came "out from God" as the "form of God" back "before all worlds." Mary produced the Human body in which the divine Spirit dwelt, but in the dateless past God produced the celestial body (Ex. 24:10) in which he dwelt , before He was "made flesh" (John 1:14).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

HIS IDEA?

I was preaching this from 1980. Drysdale I assume was teaching it before me. Ekstat taught it before Drysdale, on and on.

When you reject this truth you are putting a gap between YOURSELF and Biblical Oneness.

Of course, I deny that claim. Adam was the only image of God when God made him so.