Canadian and American Healthcare ?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

You certainly do pay! That's a case of government overstepping it's bounds.

Value of Life? No problem with that but I find it also immoral for government to steal from one to give to another.

You are at odds with your philosophy Brother, if you value life, you will en devour to make sure that everyone is taken care of.

Government only steals when they are involved in things they shouldn't be like teaching that Gay & Lesbians are a valid lifestyle choice or involved in a war they should never have started.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Ron

Who said that? There are areas where I think that the Government is wrong.
Making sure that Healthcare is not for profit is something everyone should stand for.

Should someone go without healthcare because they can't afford it?

I know of people on this board who are suffering because they can not afford coverage.

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Though he mentions food, he does say needful for the body.

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Obviously Jesus wasn't concerned about profit, but about "CARE" & "COMPASSION!"

Healthcare for everyone is a right!

Every verse you quoted has NOTHING to do with governmental health care (I:E- steal from some to give to others). It does address those in the body of faith reaching out to those in need. I firmly believe that and Christianity used to do that. It was never intended for civil rulers. The church has abdicated it's position and civil government has created 'legal' thievery and has created communistic healthcare and education along with other things it has no business authorizing.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Ron

You are at odds with your philosophy Brother, if you value life, you will en devour to make sure that everyone is taken care of.

Government only steals when they are involved in things they shouldn't be like teaching that Gay & Lesbians are a valid lifestyle choice or involved in a war they should never have started.

You should take a lesson in Biblical economics. Try "Theonomy in Christian Ethics" by Greg Bahnsen. Good place to start. It's amazing how much Scripture addresses when it is taken as a whole.

Now matter how much you close your eyes to it Canada has become a socialist state with America not far behind and in economics it amounts to forcibly taking from some to give to others and there is no warrant for that.

[TrueNorth]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

You certainly do pay! That's a case of government overstepping it's bounds.

Value of Life? No problem with that but I find it also immoral for government to steal from one to give to another.

Our government is clearly mandated to provide healthcare and a social network because we are a caring society.
I do find it interesting that Americans (even Christians) have such a problem with caring for the less fortunate in their society.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by TrueNorth

Our government is clearly mandated to provide healthcare and a social network because we are a caring society.
I do find it interesting that Americans (even Christians) have such a problem with caring for the less fortunate in their society.

Didn't Marx say essentially the same thing???? From the cradle to the grave.....The government is your savior.

What's wrong with Biblical Ethics in civil government?

BTW, sinners that are humanistic to the core are a "caring society"?

[ReformedDave]

Prescribe a Dose of Free Enterprise for Medicine
by Steven F. Hotze, M.D.
3/13/2007

The only thing that will save medicine is a good dose of free enterprise. Government regulations, entitlement programs and HMOs are leading us down the road to socialized medicine.

In 1960, only 21 % of personal medical care expenditures were paid by the government, 24% by insurance companies and 55% were paid by consumers out of their own pockets. Today, the government pays for over 50% of all medical expenses while consumers pay for only 15% of care out of pocket. HMOs and other insurance schemes pay the rest.

When my wife and I had our first baby in 1969 at St. David’s Hospital in Austin, the total cost, which we paid out of pocket, was $250 for three days in the hospital and $250 for the obstetrician. When adjusted for inflation, this would equal $2500 today. Yet the total cost of a delivery today, including hospital and doctor, has increased 6 times, to approximately $15,000. What has caused this dramatic increase?

Private medical practice is being choked by corporate socialism, which is the cooperative effort of insurance companies and government to destroy competition and replace it with central planning called “managed care.”

At the heart of capitalism is the voluntary exchange of goods and services for money between two individuals. Private enterprise encourages businesses to compete for consumer dollars. This system of independent economic actions, freely taken by millions of consumers and businesses, has proven to produce the highest standards of living in every country where it has been adopted. Free enterprise capitalism is the soil in which liberty flourishes.

Socialism opposes free enterprise and private property, seeking to govern the economy through central planning. All activity is planned by government bureaucrats and must be enforced by laws and funded through legalized theft of the productive citizens. Everywhere socialism has been tried it has discouraged innovation and led to shortages and rationing of goods and services. Socialism is the drought in which liberty wilts and dies.

Socialism undermines the doctor-patient relationship. If you are covered by an HMO or by Medicare, then your doctor no longer works for you but for whoever pays his bills. The doctor must follow their rules and accept their fees. This is why you may feel that your doctor is not listening to you or doesn’t seem to care. Your physician can only serve one master, and it’s not you.

The solution is to return to a free enterprise system for medicine with doctors charging a fee for service, just like any other business. Treatment is consumer-based and permits the patient to choose how to spend his money. This can be easily achieved through the use of a Health Saving Account (HSA) coupled with a high deductible catastrophic insurance policy. Ask your business to offer this option which is tax free, just like an IRA. What you don’t spend you can save.

Beware of politicians who promise to lead us into the Promised Land by giving us universal health coverage, which really means socialized medicine.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by TrueNorth

Our government is clearly mandated to provide healthcare and a social network because we are a caring society.
I do find it interesting that Americans (even Christians) have such a problem with caring for the less fortunate in their society.

Amen.

Obviously some believe if you can't afford it-suffer.

I don't find that socialistic, or humanistic.

I find it being a Compassionate Christian.

The American system is built on nothing less than Greed.
If there is a buck to be made-make it.

That isn't something that even an atheist could agree with.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


Boy, the old prophet sure hit the nail on the head with that verse!!

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Ron

Amen.

Obviously some believe if you can't afford it-suffer.

I don't find that socialistic, or humanistic.

I find it being a Compassionate Christian.

The American system is built on nothing less than Greed.
If there is a buck to be made-make it.

That isn't something that even an atheist could agree with.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


Boy, the old prophet sure hit the nail on the head with that verse!!

Can you explain to me what is socialism(in health care) and how it differs from your system?

I've never condoned suffering. I think it immoral to take from one by government force and give to another. As Christians we should voluntarily be doing this. The church has stopped almost all charity and given it to the government who has become our savior.

[ILG]

My Canadian cousin ( I have a bazillion) died at a young age from ovarian cancer because she couldn't get in to see a doctor. My relatives believe if she had been in the US, she may well be alive today.

I am not for government health care. Not only for this reason, but because I don't think people who live healthy should have to be responsible for the health care of people who abuse their bodies.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by ILG

My Canadian cousin ( I have a bazillion) died at a young age from ovarian cancer because she couldn't get in to see a doctor. My relatives believe if she had been in the US, she may well be alive today.

I am not for government health care. Not only for this reason, but because I don't think people who live healthy should have to be responsible for the health care of people who abuse their bodies.

I agree. This is not to say that there are possibilities for sin in a capitalistic system. As long as there is fallen man there will be abuse. But the Biblical pattern of private property and ownership, capitalism, and proper taxation is still found in Scripture and government funding of health care isn't.