Televangelist's Family Prosper's From Ministry

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

The Trinity and Oneness issue does not play into this - at least not to my knowledge. It seems to be a thing that the Pentecostal/Charismatics are plagued with. Financial scandal appears to be at epidemic levels among them, and it's quite disproportionate when comparing to the nonPentecostal religious community.

I think it's noteworthy that these same ministry types are also know to shun the accountability organizations (like http://www.ecfa.org/ ) that can help prevent and rectify the problems in question.

I think there are multiple reasons for this being a problem more with Pentecostal / Charismatics. Here are some of the contributing factors I see;

1. Historically Pentecost was the church "across the railroad tracks" small and made up mostly of women. As the church grew and members became more affluent the pay structures that had been set up when 100% of the tithe was not enogh to feed and house the pastor became very generous and in many cases not changed. For that reason there are Pentecostal pastors who earn many times more than the vast majority of the saints in their church. Many have moved to some sort of defined income that is reasonable for a comfortable lifestyle, retirement, etc but does not just endlessly grow as the tithe income grows. A few though continue to use the tithe as a windfall to fund personal investments, multiple houses, etc

2. The sensationalistic nature of many of these large national ministries draws support (read that monetary support) from the elderly and lower socio economic class looking for hope and to get ahead in life. Many promote the so called "prosperity gospel" message that tells people Christianity is in essence a multi level marketing machine. If you bless their ministry it is guaranteed God will bless you regardless of your standing with God, committment to Him and His Word, etc. Scriptures are taken out of context to craft this message that God wants everybody to drive Mercedes, live in mansions, and never suffer. This has great appeal and brings in the bucks. Obviously those willing to distort the gospel in this way do not have the moral fortitude NOT to abuse their ill gained money.

3. "Blood is thicker than water" - I don't now why but nepotism seems to be a continuing problem in Pentecost / Charismatic circles. Perhaps because of the history of not having wealth, education, etc ministers feel a need to protect and prosper relatives regardless of their competency.

4. In the case of Black churches and ministries it seems that Black folks in America tend to live out their dreams for themselves when it comes to llifestyle through their ministers. They do not feel taken for a ride of fleeced for the most part when their pastors drive extraordinarily expensive cars and live in mansions. They seem to be proud and look to them as their representative of taking a piece of the American pie at the top.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

...
Sam, I don't know as the salary of my Gen Supt is hidden, I don't imagine it is. I don't personally know what he makes nor do I care. I know he's a man of God and integrity. What he makes, what he does with what he makes, is currently between him and God.
...

I did not mean to compare Kenneth Haney with Kenneth Copeland.
Nor did I mean to compare the UPC with Kenneth Copeland's organization.

I do not support the UPC (except with purchases from the Publishing House) and therefore it is really none of my business what Kenneth Haney's salary is.

But, the UPC, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and many other groups have non-profit status. Whatever money they make over and above expenses is not taxable. I'm sure the accounting is done in such a way that there is not shown any profit or income above expenses. Expenses would include salaries and perks of employees. I was just wondering if it is possible to even find out what the actual salaries are for folks like Dr. Dobson, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Kenneth Haney and how they would compare.

Please don't take this as a putdown of Bro. Haney nor of the UPC.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

...folks before pounding on Sam, he has let us all know what his GE pension is!!!! I'm waiting for the Sam/GE fund for starving monkeys!!!

GE pension after 32 years of service, plus Social Security after paying in from the age of 16 to the age of 62 is under $45K.

As far as charitable contributions, the left hand does not need to know what the right hand is doing.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by Sam

I did not mean to compare Kenneth Haney with Kenneth Copeland.
Nor did I mean to compare the UPC with Kenneth Copeland's organization.

I do not support the UPC (except with purchases from the Publishing House) and therefore it is really none of my business what Kenneth Haney's salary is.

But, the UPC, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and many other groups have non-profit status. Whatever money they make over and above expenses is not taxable. I'm sure the accounting is done in such a way that there is not shown any profit or income above expenses. Expenses would include salaries and perks of employees. I was just wondering if it is possible to even find out what the actual salaries are for folks like Dr. Dobson, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Kenneth Haney and how they would compare.

Please don't take this as a putdown of Bro. Haney nor of the UPC.

I didn't take it as a putdown... I just didn't see the connection between KC, BH and some of those others, to KH.

have no idea what Bro Haney makes as GS... I can't imagine it being near the amount that BH and KC would be pulling in. Not sure about Dobson... I've never seen any articles that have dug into FOTF's finances actually.

Has anyone else? From what I've seen of Dobson, he seems to like the simple life.

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by Sam

GE pension after 32 years of service, plus Social Security after paying in from the age of 16 to the age of 62 is under $45K.

As far as charitable contributions, the left hand does not need to know what the right hand is doing.

GE as in? General Electric?
Seriously, I have no idea what GE stands for.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by CC1

In the case of Black churches and ministries it seems that Black folks in America tend to live out their dreams for themselves when it comes to llifestyle through their ministers. They do not feel taken for a ride of fleeced for the most part when their pastors drive extraordinarily expensive cars and live in mansions. They seem to be proud and look to them as their representative of taking a piece of the American pie at the top.

Wow.
That is an unbelievably stupid and uninformed comment!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by CC1

I think there are multiple reasons for this being a problem more with Pentecostal / Charismatics. Here are some of the contributing factors I see;
... cars and live in mansions. They seem to be proud and look to them as their representative of taking a piece of the American pie at the top.

I think that your analysis is fair. "All tithes" during the lean years often meant that a lot of the pastors worked in a secular job and supported the church with more than a tithe of their own. After many years of such labor, when a "break through" is experienced it's inevitable that a lot of men would expect that the income was a "blessing" for their years of sacrifice.

Also, from my experiences, at least within Oneness circles most of the guys are rather generous themselves. One thing that you do run into that seems to spark problems from time to time is suspicion on the part of the pastor. These guys do get burned a bit. I've watched in frustration as people that I thought were obvious frauds would come along and get grand treatment while others were shown the door.

Churches of all kinds are often the target of scammers and many outright theives. Once you've been burned a few times it's hard to trust strangers and even "church people" again. So, some pastors sadly grow a thick skin.

But how much does one pastor "deserve" in income? That will always be debated. As long as Copeland's employing a large staff I guess we can say he's having a positive impact on the local economy. And if people are relocating to be "under his covering" (or whatever) then the Chamber of Commerce probably cheers him on as well.

Where I strenuously draw the line however, is when "giving" and "paying" are used in manipulative fashions to extort funds from the gullible. I find it strange that some folks who preach angrily against state lotteries will then tell folks to instead give money to them so that "good things" and "blessings" will happen to them. What's the difference between that pitch and the lottery ads I hear on the radio?

And a lot of "saints" that I've known talk about tithing as if it were an "investment" into the state lottery. They "hope" and "believe" that through the payment of their hard earned money they can buy favor with God. Since this "favor" appears to be rather hit and miss in its dispensation, I doubt divine involvement and see it as another superstition to curry favor with "forces" that may or may not exist beyond the ken of human awareness.

Here's a fact - a hard learned financial fact: The man who I spent the better part of my life supporting, feeding, clothing and putting a roof over his head despises me heartily and his church no longer even exists, for all intents and purposes. And...

If I had invested the money that I had given to him over the years I could retire today as a millionaire.

So instead of investing in my future, I invested in "the kingdom..." But I was deceived. The "kingdom" I was investing in (a local UPC church) was not affiliated with the Kingdom of God or any truly eternal principles, but was simply this other guy's retirement plan. So now he enjoys a comfortable retirement while I worry about mine.

I was a sap. A patsy. An easy mark.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by TRFrance

"Pay the leaders well"? I think that the idea that church leaders are entitled to be paid well is ridiculous.

Pay the leaders fairly, yes. But where does it say church/ministry leaders must be paid well?

Jesus wasn't paid well, neither was Paul, or any of the other apostles, as far as we know.

What kind of money did Peter rake in while ministering? Didn't he have to go do a "secular" job to pay their taxes?

[CC1]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Wow.
That is an unbelievably stupid and uninformed comment!

It was not well worded. I do not mean all Black churches and saints. However many who deal with black churches in Pentecost / Charismatic circles a lot like St. Mark and Sandra have said as much themselves.

That a lot of black culture holds their preachers up as a kind of "royalty". Hence the bodyguards, mansions, expensive cars, etc.

In poor urban areas sometimes the saints can live vicariously through the lifestyle of their pastor.

It is a different mindset than in most white churches although I have seen a few charismatic ones where the preachers are almost worshipped and dealt with in this same manner.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think that your analysis is fair. "All tithes" during the lean years often meant that a lot of the pastors worked in a secular job and supported the church with more than a tithe of their own. After many years of such labor, when a "break through" is experienced it's inevitable that a lot of men would expect that the income was a "blessing" for their years of sacrifice.

Also, from my experiences, at least within Oneness circles most of the guys are rather generous themselves. One thing that you do run into that seems to spark problems from time to time is suspicion on the part of the pastor. These guys do get burned a bit. I've watched in frustration as people that I thought were obvious frauds would come along and get grand treatment while others were shown the door.

Churches of all kinds are often the target of scammers and many outright theives. Once you've been burned a few times it's hard to trust strangers and even "church people" again. So, some pastors sadly grow a thick skin.

But how much does one pastor "deserve" in income? That will always be debated. As long as Copeland's employing a large staff I guess we can say he's having a positive impact on the local economy. And if people are relocating to be "under his covering" (or whatever) then the Chamber of Commerce probably cheers him on as well.

Where I strenuously draw the line however, is when "giving" and "paying" are used in manipulative fashions to extort funds from the gullible. I find it strange that some folks who preach angrily against state lotteries will then tell folks to instead give money to them so that "good things" and "blessings" will happen to them. What's the difference between that pitch and the lottery ads I hear on the radio?

And a lot of "saints" that I've known talk about tithing as if it were an "investment" into the state lottery. They "hope" and "believe" that through the payment of their hard earned money they can buy favor with God. Since this "favor" appears to be rather hit and miss in its dispensation, I doubt divine involvement and see it as another superstition to curry favor with "forces" that may or may not exist beyond the ken of human awareness.

Here's a fact - a hard learned financial fact: The man who I spent the better part of my life supporting, feeding, clothing and putting a roof over his head despises me heartily and his church no longer even exists, for all intents and purposes. And...

If I had invested the money that I had given to him over the years I could retire today as a millionaire.

So instead of investing in my future, I invested in "the kingdom..." But I was deceived. The "kingdom" I was investing in (a local UPC church) was not affiliated with the Kingdom of God or any truly eternal principles, but was simply this other guy's retirement plan. So now he enjoys a comfortable retirement while I worry about mine.

I was a sap. A patsy. An easy mark.

Yikes! Sorry you invested so much time and money into a dud but the good news is that you did it as unto the Lord so once the money left your hands it became that pastors responsiblity to God about how it was spent.

You stand blameless before the Lord and the same as if the money had been spent correctly.

So really you were not a pasty or sap. Just an honest hearted person doing their best to support God's work on earth.