Shouting at NAYC

[Servant's <3]

Originally Posted by Sarah

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

Indeed.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Sarah

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sarah

To know Bro Stoneking personally, is to know that he lives and breathes for Jesus Christ...

I don't doubt that. Someone posted, although I couldn't find it, that he is a great gentleman. I think that he probably is.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by n david

Wrong. Jesus commanded His disciples to teach all nations everything He commanded them. The "everything" includes Luke 9 where He sent the twelve to heal and preach the kingdom, and Luke 10 where He sent out the seventy to do the same.

If Luke 9 and 10 are a part of what Jesus wants us to do as believers, then we are unfaithful to His instructions and are woefully insufficient in even coming close to doing what He commanded the 12 then the 70 to do, respectively. Context!

Luke 9:1,

1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

I've never heard of any minister of the Gospel taking nothing for their journey when they go to start a new work, or travel overseas, or even to preach at another established church.

In fact, the first thing a man of God does when he's ready to go out and begin His ministry, is to acquire funds, especially if he is from an organization.

That is contrary to what Jesus told the Twelve to do. So why aren't we incorporating this teaching as part of the Great Commission to saints today?

Jesus said basically the same thing to the Seventy, as well. So where's the follow through? Why aren't we obeying this? Oh, we are everyone of us supposed to have the signs and wonders of Luke 9 and 10, but we don't actually have to do anything Jesus required of the Twelve or Seventy as part of receiving the authority to do the signs and wonders?

You have to note the very first thing Jesus did, before He ever sent them out. It reads He gave them the power/authority. It was given to those men, at that time. To say that just because He did it then, that it's now an automatic for everyone, isn't rightly dividing the Word. God permitted Elijah to call down fire from heaven, and James and John wanted the ability to do likewise, and Jesus wouldn't let them (i.e. He didn't just randomly authorize the use of His power to His disciples just because they wanted it).

He is the same yesterday, today, and for ever. He doesn't just randomly authorize the use of His power to His disciples just because we want it. It has to be granted. That's why the Gifts of the Spirit are called charismata, that is, special graces given to them which are spiritual, that otherwise would not be available to them if not given by grace according to the will of God.

"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

How many funerals have you been to in the church? How many people needed surgery when they wanted a healing? How many church kids everyday get the flu, or a cold, or whatever?

Does God heal? Yes! All the time? No. So, to sit here and say (as you do below and imply here) that it's God's will to heal 100% of the time for "them that believe" means you are indirectly accusing every single person who didn't get healed, and those who died of sickness and disease of not being one of "them that believe".

You have to come to grips with reality. How many people in this country in the Apostolic church have raised the dead since 1914-15?

I've heard of four: Nathaniel Urshan, Michael Papp, whoever prayed for Brother Stoneking, and my dad.

People laid the sick in the streets so Simon Peter's shadow could fall upon them and heal them.

Paul went to Malta and it reads very clearly in Acts "he healed everyone" on the island who was sick. Jesus healed them all, as the Gospels proclaim.

I'm sick and tired of ministers and people like you who have allowed the devil to deceive them into believe the miraculous either doesn't happen or is only for a selected few.

Sure, blame the devil and those who walk in reality for the reason the church can't seem to pull a miracle out of God's gifts. The reality is, we preach healings, but the best we often hear about is non-descript pains going away during the hype of a revival that come back the next day.

Are there real healings? Yes! Does it happen? Yes! But the fake and the false and the willingness to cover it up and pretend like so and so is some great healer and be in awe of him when all he did was claim it, is a shame.

A guy walks into an evening service in his construction uniform and a preacher gets a word of knowledge that his knees are hurting him, and it's like, really?

How about the preacher getting a word of knowledge like "Brother, God is telling me that you have spinal stenosis in your lumbar, and acute facetogenic pain from an injury you received in a car accident when you were seventeen"?

God could open a hole in the wall for Ezekiel to see every sin the priests in the temple were committing in real time, but can't speak this specifically to New Testament prophets?

Can He? Yes! Has He? Yes, but not to all who claim "God is telling me". The proof is in the pudding. I read Ferd's testimony of Brother Bustard revealing the situation regarding his concussion and the healing received.

That's real! But so many are willing to fake it until they make it to make up for not being able to deliver the goods during a revival. That's the real faith killer in the church: those who make promises to God's people with a Thus Saith The Lord on their lips when God didn't really say.

And guess what? It's not wrong to call bogus bogus.

The gifts of the spirit are available to anyone who is baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost...

Available? Yes. Given to all in all their fullness to everyone who has received the Holy Spirit? No, that is contrary to the testimony of Scripture. God gives them at His discretion, assigning here, withholding here, without consulting us or getting our approval. If God hasn't given someone the Gift of Diverse Tongues, they are NEVER going to speak a diverse tongue to the church, no matter how much they received the Holy Spirit back when, or how faithful they are, or how anointed in any other way.

Wrong. It does not hinge on apostleship...Jesus said it was for anyone who believes. A believer should see these things happening.

Scripture testifies against you. Repeatedly, the words "signs", "wonders", "diverse miracles", and even "gifts of the Spirit" are used in conjunction with Apostles. You are arguing with the received testimony of Luke in Acts, Paul in his letters, and the author of Hebrews.

We never read the phrase "the signs of a pastor were done among you", or "and many signs and wonders were done by the church" or "by the hands of the saints were many signs and wonders wrought". It just isn't there, no matter how hard we might wish it to be.

If the Holy Spirit inspired the text to mention apostles ONLY with signs and wonders and diverse miracles, then we need to accept that.

I don't know why some aren't healed. I'm with Billy Cole, who believed that everyone should be healed and no believer should die from sickness or disease.

Then we aren't supposed to die? We're all just supposed to go on living and die of "natural causes", as if there is such a thing? Why aren't some healed? It's because God refused to heal!

Deuteronomy 32:39,

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

If God wants to wound someone and not heal them, you can't deliver yourself out of His hands.

It's interesting you would accept Peter being given the key, but refuse to accept Jesus' commission to the disciples to go teach all nations everything they were commanded, including to preach and heal.

Who was Jesus talking to when He gave the Great Commission? He was seen by more than 500 brethren before He ascended to heaven. Of that number only about 120 obeyed Him and received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Directly after that, as Luke records, the only people in Acts who did signs and wonders were the apostles. So the "confirming the Word with signs follow" was to do what? Confirm the Word of the Apostles, who were commissioned to preach the Gospel and teach all nations. So who was Jesus "working with", as it reads at the end of Mark? The small number of men who were actually trained by Him for 3.5 years.

In Acts 9, because of the persecution, it reads that everyone but the apostles fled Jerusalem, and they went preaching everywhere, but there is no record of signs and wonders following them. Why not?

And if you say, as you did, that it's because the book is called the Acts of the Apostles, just remember that Acts doesn't have an inspired name. It could just as easily be called The Acts of Jesus Christ or the Operation of the Holy Spirit in the Early Church, or whatever. There is no divine name upon the book.

Yes, it's about the apostles, but why? Because they were the emissaries of Christ. They were the ones granted the right to bind and loose, to issue commands in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. They, as Paul wrote, stood in Christ's stead (2 Corinthians 5:20) as His appointed representatives to the world to found the church, along with prophets, for the city of God.

Can you bind and loose? Can I? Who here among us at AFF has the right to say "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I command you..."?

We might say, but does it means it's so just for the saying?

Our names may be in the book of life, but they aren't on the foundational walls of New Jerusalem.

...you're posting false doctrine yourself!

False to you, but true to the Word of God. If not, exegete everything I have said and prove it. You are more than willing to make assertion and assertion and roll your eyes at me about half of what I've written, and little else.

Take the verses I have listed here and show me another way. I will read and receive from you, if you care to try.

Are they allowed in your upper class club of Apostles with the cool gifts?

The Apostles were slaves appointed unto death, the offscouring of the world, chosen to be last, martyred all. To make light of them and their calling and function in the Body to say they were in some "upper class" is a reproach. I am not saying anything about them the Bible doesn't say. If you don't like the testimony of Scripture about the Holy Apostles of Jesus Christ, take it up with Him.

Bottom line is you believe in a spiritual upper and lower class, that God only gives gifts to certain, select men.

I guess there's no point in caring to read any of the words Christ's apostle wrote, since they aren't all that important. No reason to be Apostolic, even.

God does the calling, the electing, the equipping. If He raises up one and puts another down, it's His right.

God gives and He takes away. No point bemoaning against Him for not giving to some what He gives to others. We all are going to share in the same inheritance with the saints in light. That is enough for me. God doesn't have to use me one bit to do anything He doesn't want to use me to do. I am fine with that. Are you?

[votivesoul]

Regarding Brother Stoneking,

The fact that you care more about what I say about him here, when I am a faceless nobody from nowhere, with no credentials in an organization, no world famous ministry, no nothing, AND YOU DON'T CARE that Brother Stoneking lied to 20,000 saints of God about the human voice shredding air molecules, is telling.

Why do I say it was an act? Because:

1.) It's not true, scientifically
2.) He nonetheless says it is, and continues to use it and has done so for years
3.) He claims he "found out" about it recently and yet not a single website (besides this one) in all of google-dom has a single reference to the idea
4.) That other preachers use it, too
5.) That he obviously knew where he was going with the whole deal from the beginning, else why go there and bring it up?
6.) That it's easy and convenient for anyone to say "God spoke to me" even though the testimony of one man is not true
7. To subjectively tell an audience something is happening in the spirit realm, even though it can't be proven Scripturally
8. That the sure word of prophecy is founded in the testimony of Scripture and not in spiritual experiences, even if the experience is seeing Jesus transfigured and hearing an audible voice from God
9. That he has been a camp, convention, crusade, and conference speaker for decades and most assuredly knows what works to get the response and results expected
10. That he can be perfectly imitated, not just in voice, but in physical mannerisms and common quotations
11. And a myriad of other reasons, none of which anyone has to believe me about.

At a camp I attended, he told a story about how he was witnessing to a Catholic lady. He told us about 30 minutes had gone by and she wasn't receiving what he said, so, he told the camp what he told her:

"Lady, if Mary was alive to day, she'd lay her hands on your ugly (my wife thinks he said "stupid") head and pray you through to the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues!"

The crowd went nuts! You don't think he knew they would? Why tell the story if it wasn't intended to excite and energize the crowd?

That same camp he told everyone to stop spending time with sinners as friends, because, and I quote "If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas". Again the crowd when wild.

We preach not ourselves, Church. And even if we need to share a portion of our testimony to help someone receive the Gospel, we don't say things like that. We are to walk circumspectly, to speak the truth in love. Mocking Catholic sinners and etc. isn't love, no matter how much truth we might think is in the words.

[votivesoul]

Lastly, if there isn't something special about apostles and the signs and wonders God gives them to do, why is it that every camp and conference Brother Stoneking is at where he is the main or only speaker, the only person many people want to pray for them during altar call is Brother Stoneking?

Are they looking at him as some upper class apostle? The unlicensed nobody in the altar call isn't good enough, I guess. Talk about "lower class saints".

In Bartlett, IL, a lady had a heart attack in the middle of his sermon, and the whole church prayed, but everyone believed it was Lee Stoneking that God used to heal her. Maybe he's an apostle?

[Esaias]

Votive, if the instructions to the twelve and the seventy were only for the twelve and the seventy, then doesn't that mean the "Great Commission" is likewise restricted to that first apostolic group?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Votive, if the instructions to the twelve and the seventy were only for the twelve and the seventy, then doesn't that mean the "Great Commission" is likewise restricted to that first apostolic group?

Good question. The answer is "no", as I understand it, for the following reasons:

1.) The Twelve and the Seventy situation in the Gospels was a special commissioning restricted to Christ's operational ministry prior to the cross. Jesus ordered them to only go to the lost nation of Israel, and no one else. This is not the case for the Great Commission.

2.) When the Lord sent the Twelve and the Seventy, it was they alone who were commissioned, i.e. no other disciples from the pool of several hundred were authorized to go on the mission.

In the Great Commission, every disciple present on the mountain top (all 500+) were told the same thing, without restrictions.

3.) Prior to Pentecost, the only portion of the Five-fold ministry in existence among the disciples was apostle and evangelist. Post-Pentecost, the other three portions were established by the Lord. And since all five ministries are called by grace to perfect the saints for the work of the ministry, which includes displaying the Gospel of Christ to the world, then by extension, the whole church, when she comes into perfection, is responsible to Christ for fulfilling that purpose. To grow up into the Head and achieve the stature of the fullness of Christ is to live out the Great Commission as One Body, meaning all are required to be involved in displaying Christ to the lost and inviting them to come and be a part of His kingdom.

4.) Paul gave instructions about finding faithful men, and in the finding, commissioning them to pass on the Word of God as it had been received. This includes the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

5.) If it was only for the Twelve and then Seventy, once they died, the church would have died, too.

6.) There are still supposed to be Apostles (and Prophets) today, who by extension, receive the same commission, grace, and anointing to be the Lord's specific ambassadors to the world, just as those early Twelve and Seventy.

Since Apostles are to be set first in the church, it is predominately their responsibility to ensure the Great Commission is being fulfilled. Much hinges on them and their work. Some are apostles and no one realizes it. Some say they are and they are not, sincerely mistaken/a victim of wishful thinking. Others are intentionally false, as Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 11.

7.) Since the Gospel is or is supposed to be perpetuated, the only way to do that is if, generation after generation, members of the Body continue to receive the commission to preach the Gospel. In Acts 6, deacons were commissioned to help the church. Paul wrote the deacons who succeed in their mission gain great boldness in the faith. They become qualified to speak freely and openly about believing and receiving Jesus.

__________________________________________________ _______________

There are, of course, novices and people who do harm to the Church and to Christ's reputation when they attempt to undertake the Great Commission. They may not be ready, have been improperly trained and/or exhorted, or haven't personally received a commissioning from the Lord to partake in the dissemination of the Gospel and the doctrines of Christ.

If a brother or sister is foundation-less and has no real grasp on what they are saying, they need to be equipped. Until they are equipped to faithfully relay the message of salvation, it may be appropriate to advise a withdrawal from such endeavors until they have been better perfected.

But the call is still upon them, nonetheless.

[votivesoul]

Two more:

8. Christ has an unchangeable priesthood. Ours is likewise unchangeable and is the same for everyone in the New Covenant.

9. The consummation of the Church Age hasn't occurred.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Regarding Brother Stoneking,

The fact that you care more about what I say about him here, when I am a faceless nobody from nowhere, with no credentials in an organization, no world famous ministry, no nothing, AND YOU DON'T CARE that Brother Stoneking lied to 20,000 saints of God about the human voice shredding air molecules, is telling.

Why do I say it was an act? Because:

1.) It's not true, scientifically
2.) He nonetheless says it is, and continues to use it and has done so for years
3.) He claims he "found out" about it recently and yet not a single website (besides this one) in all of google-dom has a single reference to the idea
4.) That other preachers use it, too
5.) That he obviously knew where he was going with the whole deal from the beginning, else why go there and bring it up?
6.) That it's easy and convenient for anyone to say "God spoke to me" even though the testimony of one man is not true
7. To subjectively tell an audience something is happening in the spirit realm, even though it can't be proven Scripturally
8. That the sure word of prophecy is founded in the testimony of Scripture and not in spiritual experiences, even if the experience is seeing Jesus transfigured and hearing an audible voice from God
9. That he has been a camp, convention, crusade, and conference speaker for decades and most assuredly knows what works to get the response and results expected
10. That he can be perfectly imitated, not just in voice, but in physical mannerisms and common quotations
11. And a myriad of other reasons, none of which anyone has to believe me about.

At a camp I attended, he told a story about how he was witnessing to a Catholic lady. He told us about 30 minutes had gone by and she wasn't receiving what he said, so, he told the camp what he told her:

"Lady, if Mary was alive to day, she'd lay her hands on your ugly (my wife thinks he said "stupid") head and pray you through to the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues!"

The crowd went nuts! You don't think he knew they would? Why tell the story if it wasn't intended to excite and energize the crowd?

That same camp he told everyone to stop spending time with sinners as friends, because, and I quote "If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas". Again the crowd when wild.

We preach not ourselves, Church. And even if we need to share a portion of our testimony to help someone receive the Gospel, we don't say things like that. We are to walk circumspectly, to speak the truth in love. Mocking Catholic sinners and etc. isn't love, no matter how much truth we might think is in the words.

I want to add/clarify:

I do not think, and did not intend in anything I've so far written, to mean that I think Brother Stoneking was willingly and knowingly pretending and attempting to pull one over on anyone, like some shyster or con-artist.

I don't doubt his sincerity, his love for God or God's people, and that He, in any given moment in time while preaching, is trying his utmost to serve the Lord and represent Him well. I give him that. I give that to most and probably almost all.

That isn't the issue. I have not and will not call him a false prophet, or even put the word false next to his name, as, for me, false speaks to the intentional character of a person's heart. There is intentional deception in the heart of a person who is false.

A person who is mistaken is false in their mistake, but that's not a measure of their inward person, just a measure of what they know or understand.

So when I say things like "an act", or etc. I don't mean as a pretense, I mean it as a routine that he and many others fall into, almost a schtick, if you will, that he and many others bring to a pulpit most every time he (and others) preach.

It goes beyond quirks and habits, and personality traits. Many of these convention, camp, and conference preachers preach the same sermon on a circuit from place to place. They are canned and are designed to do the same thing everywhere the sermon is preached.

Like it or not, that is an act. It's showmanship. But when a true falsehood is introduced into that, in order to induce God's people into doing something, that's when I speak up, at least here.

I can't personally contact him, unless someone has and will give me his phone number (and that's beside the point). This is an open forum intended for discussion, even if occasionally it's about real people.

We all have to--WE HAVE TO--make judgment calls about all we see and here in the movement, in the church. It's not good to take everything at face value or to lay everything at the Lord's feet and say, "Yup, from God".

If anyone wants to know by what rubric I measure and discern if something or someone is legit, I ask, by what rubric do you measure and/or discern if something or someone is legit?

If I have sincere doubts and can adequately substantiate those doubts into facts, as I have been able to do, then as unpalatable as it may be, and as much as this probably isn't helping some, hopefully it's still helping.

How did the Ephesians in Revelation 2 judge the people claiming to be Apostles and find them false and accuse them of being liars? It had to have been handled some way. A major risk was being taken, if they were wrong. And yet, the Lord commended them for doing it.

I attempt to evaluate and do something somewhat similar, for at least one incident, and for some, (or at least one) I'm swimming with satanists and atheists.

Well, then, I hope no one ever, not even once, makes a judgment call against anything any minister ever says or does, and shares it*, of all things, because then, you might just end up sitting where I'm at.

(*Next time Jeff Arnold calls someone an idiot, remember these words. [Yeah, I read that whole post and I remember who said what.])