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  #11  
Old 05-23-2007, 05:06 AM
Sister Phyllis
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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Then, if you do not take up serpents, you are not a Christian. Drink some poison. If you are harmed, you are not a Christian. If you lay hands on the sick and they do not recover, that would prove you are not a Christian.

I'm just using your own logic. You cannot take part of that scripture and make the statement you did, without also applying the rest of it in the same way.

(Or is that what you meant by "ETC"? Do you drink poison? Does every single sick person you lay hands on recover?)

BTW, don't drink poison. It's not really a good way to find out if you are a Christian!
You have to be careful how you interpret that verse of Scripture .It does not mean thatyou go out there and deliverably take of a serpent or drink poison to see if God will heal you .That would be putting God to the test What it is saying I feel is that if someone lets say like our missionaries get bit by a snake or drink by accident some poison drink the Lord can heal them if he so desires He is all sufficient but we dontgo around trying or testing ourLord It does not mean that if you are not healed from this you are not a christian mercy The Lord will do what is best for each of us and according to His will okay but He is able to deliver and heal and save when we ask Him . The bible tells us that with HIS stripes we are healed and I look at this verse in this way we are healed whether that takes place here or when we get to heaven one way or another we ill be healed and so I claim healing in Jesus name and have faith in Him to accomplish His will in my life

God bless
sister phyllis
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  #12  
Old 05-23-2007, 05:17 AM
Sister Phyllis
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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Then, if you do not take up serpents, you are not a Christian. Drink some poison. If you are harmed, you are not a Christian. If you lay hands on the sick and they do not recover, that would prove you are not a Christian.

I'm just using your own logic. You cannot take part of that scripture and make the statement you did, without also applying the rest of it in the same way.

(Or is that what you meant by "ETC"? Do you drink poison? Does every single sick person you lay hands on recover?)

BTW, don't drink poison. It's not really a good way to find out if you are a Christian!

Mar 16:18 -

Take up serpents - Several MSS. add εν ταις χερσιν, in their hands - shall be enabled to give, when such a proof may be serviceable to the cause of truth, this evidence of their being continually under the power and protection of God, and that all nature is subject to him. This also was literally fulfilled in the case of Paul, Act_28:5.
If they drink any deadly thing - Θανασιμον (φαρμακον) being understood - if they should through mistake, or accident, drink any poisonous matter, their constant preserver will take care that it shall not injure them. See a similar promise, Isa_43:2.
They shall lay hands on the sick - And I will convey a healing power by their hands, so that the sick shall recover, and men shall see that these are sent and acknowledged by the Most High. Several instances of this kind are found in the Acts of the Apostles.

That the apostles of our Lord should not lose their lives by poison is most fully asserted in this verse, and there is neither record nor tradition to disprove this. But it is worthy of remark, that Mohammed, who styled himself The Apostle Of God, lost his life by poison; and had he been a true apostle of God, he could not have fallen by it.

Mar 16:17 σημεια signs 4592 N-NPN δε And 1161 CONJ τοις them 3588 T-DPM πιστευσασιν that believe 4100 V-AAP-DPM ταυτα these 5023 D-NPN παρακολουθησει shall follow, 3877 V-FAI-3S εν In 1722 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN μου my 3450 P-1GS δαιμονια devils 1140 N-APN εκβαλουσιν shall they cast out 1544 V-FAI-3P γλωσσαις tongues 1100 N-DPF λαλησουσιν they shall speak 2980 V-FAI-3P καιναις with new. 2537 A-DPF

Mar 16:18 οφεις serpents 3789 N-APM αρουσιν They shall take up 142 V-FAI-3P καν and if 2579 COND-C θανασιμον deadly thing 2286 A-ASN τι any 5100 X-ASN πιωσιν they drink 4095 V-2AAS-3P ου 3756 PRT-N μη 3361 PRT-N αυτους them 846 P-APM βλαψει hurt, 984 V-FAI-3S επι on 1909 PREP αρρωστους the sick 732 A-APM χειρας hands 5495 N-APF επιθησουσιν they shall lay 2007 V-FAI-3P και and 2532 CONJ καλως 2573 ADV εξουσιν they shall recover. 2192 V-FAI-3P

God bless
sister phyllis
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  #13  
Old 05-23-2007, 05:38 AM
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Trouvere Trouvere is offline
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haha...Sister Phyllis,
You typed,"Mohammed, who styled himself The Apostle Of God, lost his life by poison; and had he been a true apostle of God, he could not have fallen by it."

I have to say this witty.
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  #14  
Old 05-23-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Phyllis View Post
You have to be careful how you interpret that verse of Scripture .It does not mean thatyou go out there and deliverably take of a serpent or drink poison to see if God will heal you .That would be putting God to the test What it is saying I feel is that if someone lets say like our missionaries get bit by a snake or drink by accident some poison drink the Lord can heal them if he so desires He is all sufficient but we dontgo around trying or testing ourLord It does not mean that if you are not healed from this you are not a christian mercy The Lord will do what is best for each of us and according to His will okay but He is able to deliver and heal and save when we ask Him . The bible tells us that with HIS stripes we are healed and I look at this verse in this way we are healed whether that takes place here or when we get to heaven one way or another we ill be healed and so I claim healing in Jesus name and have faith in Him to accomplish His will in my life

God bless
sister phyllis
Thanks, Sister Phyllis. I agree with some of what you say. My point was that Bruce has twisted this scripture (IMO) to say it requires Christians to speak in tongues, without also taking the rest of this list as requirements. The part that says "if" (the poison drinking) could be left off and dealt with in the way you talk about (accident), but the rest of the items, using "shall", are on the same footing as tongues.

If Bruce is correct, then a Christian must speak in tongues. Then presumably, he must also take up serpents, must cast out devils, must lay hands on the sick (who must then recover). Otherwise he is not a Christian. Also, if someone does die from poison, by Bruce's reasoning, he was not a Christian.

Haven't seen a reply from Bruce yet, and perhaps he does all these things. If so, he must be one of the very few real Christians there are in the world. (Remember, every single sick person must recover, or he's not a Christian, by his reasoning. And he must take up serpents, and I don't think harmless garden snakes count!)

Here's my take (FWIW). This is a list of signs that will follow. Not a list of requirements, and that includes tongues! Further, I think the signs (true signs) have fallen off since NT times a great deal, perhaps to zero. I've seen enough fakes and frauds that pretty much every story of miraculous signs are now suspect.

Note: I said perhaps to zero, and pretty much every story! I am open-minded about this, but very skeptical. For that, blame the frauds, if you folks really do have the real thing! I myself have experienced what I thought were healings, and perhaps they were. But I think today, God's work is done in the vast majority of cases through the hands of man: caring for and helping each other in love, charities, medicine, etc.
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Bruce Klein
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Hello Timmy,

Mark 16:16-18

“Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who do trust: in my name they will drive out demons, speak with new tongues, 18 not be injured if they handle snakes or drink poison, and heal the sick by laying hands on them." Mark 16:16-17 The Complete Jewish Bible by Dr. David Stern, the last I heard he was not Charismatic. He learned Greek at Fuller Theological Seminary.

Dr. Stern gives the proper translation from Greek to English.


King James Version
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:16-18


Believing and baptism is required for salvation. Many try to pervert this phrase. What does it say???? John 3:5

These signs will follow them that believe:

They will cast out devils.

They will speak with new tongues.

If they take up serpents/snakes, they will not be injured.

If they drink poison, they will not be injured.

They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


In another post I dealt with not laying hands on just anyone.


Friend, in Greek or English just read the Words and believe. Paul picked-up a snake which bit him. Was he injured? Why not? Could it have been a miracle? I know you believe it was a miracle. Miracles still happen today. Maybe you need to find the right church?


Mar 16:17 σημεια signs 4592 N-NPN δε And 1161 CONJ τοις them 3588 T-DPM πιστευσασιν that believe 4100 V-AAP-DPM ταυτα these 5023 D-NPN παρακολουθησει shall follow, 3877 V-FAI-3S εν In 1722 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN μου my 3450 P-1GS δαιμονια devils 1140 N-APN εκβαλουσιν shall they cast out 1544 V-FAI-3P γλωσσαις tongues 1100 N-DPF λαλησουσιν they shall speak 2980 V-FAI-3P καιναις with new. 2537 A-DPF
Mar 16:18 οφεις serpents 3789 N-APM αρουσιν They shall take up 142 V-FAI-3P καν and if 2579 COND-C θανασιμον deadly thing 2286 A-ASN τι any 5100 X-ASN πιωσιν they drink 4095 V-2AAS-3P ου 3756 PRT-N μη 3361 PRT-N αυτους them 846 P-APM βλαψει hurt, 984 V-FAI-3S επι on 1909 PREP αρρωστους the sick 732 A-APM χειρας hands 5495 N-APF επιθησουσιν they shall lay 2007 V-FAI-3P και and 2532 CONJ καλως 2573 ADV εξουσιν they shall recover. 2192 V-FAI-3P Stephanus 1550



In Jesus,
Brother Bruce
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  #16  
Old 03-26-2009, 07:34 AM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Where is this from: HINT - not the Quran

"....then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death...."

Don't bother to explain context, as I am fully aware that this is only part but not all of the text of this and associated verses.

The caution here is that taken out of context, there are many, many verses in the Bible that (given a little time and energy) can be strung together out of context, like these lines from the Quran, to cause an unlearned person to interpret the Bible in a negative light or even use the out-of-context passages for their own personal, political, or financial ends. Rather than do this thing, why not suggest "read the Quran for yourself" Surah by Surah and line by line. Then determine for yourself what the Quran means. Handing out a few crumbs then boldly stating that these crumbs represent the Quran, rather than suggesting "read this book" implies a fear of the Quran and a fear of the audience actually educating themselves in what the book actually says.

It is as foolish to blindly follow a radical minister as it is to blindly follow a radical Imam. Followers of both Islam and Christianity are guilty, equally so, of this foolishness. Islam was not spread by a sword and those who have corrupted Islam with violence neither represent followers of the Quran nor the teachings of the Prophet.

The (5) pillars of Islam are:

1. Belief in the one and only one true God and the worship of none other (familiar?)
2. Prayer. Regular, daily prayer. (familiar?)
3. Fasting. There are both required and recommended fasting times. (familiar?)
4. Charity. It is required that a specific portion of your income and property must go to charity. Preference is in physical goods to the truly needy. (familiar?)
5. Return to roots. Every Muslim, if able, is required to make at least one prigramage to Mecca, site of a place of worship to God originally built by Abraham. This is a requirement of the Prophet but I do not believe this is specifically required in the Quran.

See extra things on the news shows? It represents the few thousand out of over a billion Muslims who have taken bits and pieces of teachings and strung them together for their own ends. See comments above on that subject.
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  #17  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:10 AM
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Trouvere Trouvere is offline
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Surely you have not received revelation on the One true God Jesus Christ or you
would not even stoop to defend Islam. Islam is not a nice candy coated religon as it is painted. It is a religon of hatred for all unbelievers and friend that would be us the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. That cannot be refuted.
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  #18  
Old 03-26-2009, 12:52 PM
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Bro. Klein, thanks for your contributions to this thread. I hope you don't mind me saving some of this information. Godspeed!
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  #19  
Old 03-26-2009, 01:15 PM
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
Where is this from: HINT - not the Quran

"....then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death...."

Don't bother to explain context, as I am fully aware that this is only part but not all of the text of this and associated verses.

The caution here is that taken out of context, there are many, many verses in the Bible that (given a little time and energy) can be strung together out of context, like these lines from the Quran, to cause an unlearned person to interpret the Bible in a negative light or even use the out-of-context passages for their own personal, political, or financial ends. Rather than do this thing, why not suggest "read the Quran for yourself" Surah by Surah and line by line. Then determine for yourself what the Quran means. Handing out a few crumbs then boldly stating that these crumbs represent the Quran, rather than suggesting "read this book" implies a fear of the Quran and a fear of the audience actually educating themselves in what the book actually says.

It is as foolish to blindly follow a radical minister as it is to blindly follow a radical Imam. Followers of both Islam and Christianity are guilty, equally so, of this foolishness. Islam was not spread by a sword and those who have corrupted Islam with violence neither represent followers of the Quran nor the teachings of the Prophet.

The (5) pillars of Islam are:

1. Belief in the one and only one true God and the worship of none other (familiar?)
2. Prayer. Regular, daily prayer. (familiar?)
3. Fasting. There are both required and recommended fasting times. (familiar?)
4. Charity. It is required that a specific portion of your income and property must go to charity. Preference is in physical goods to the truly needy. (familiar?)
5. Return to roots. Every Muslim, if able, is required to make at least one prigramage to Mecca, site of a place of worship to God originally built by Abraham. This is a requirement of the Prophet but I do not believe this is specifically required in the Quran.

See extra things on the news shows? It represents the few thousand out of over a billion Muslims who have taken bits and pieces of teachings and strung them together for their own ends. See comments above on that subject.
Do you think there are as many "radical" Christian pastors as there are Islamic leaders? There are no Christian nations where you can be stoned or beaten to death if you are a 13 year old girl that was gang raped by 3 men.

While I understand there are moderate Muslims, unfortunately there are either not enough, they are too weak or they are too silent. Your post? I think the ones that need to hear it are not Christians but those radical muslims. And rather than try to preach to us, stand up and denounce those radical segments if Islam.

On the other matters:
We know we are saved. We know we have eternal life. We don't have to go through life wondering if we have done enough goodness to merit salvation.

Yes we believe in One True God. Is He the same God as Islam? By comparison it does not seem He is.

Regular daily prayer? That is essential, but we are not earning our way to heaven by doing so.

Fasting? Required? Again, no. We don't have special days that we are commanded or forced to fast on. We fast for a different reason. In fact much of what we do is not about fearful obedience, earning our way to heaven or a fear of going to hell. It's about Love. We love God, so we have a relationship with God. We want to do things that draw us closer to God and maintain that closeness. And at the same time we love each other and try to be strong for each other. IF someone has a need, we pray for that person. Fasting helps to increase our faith as well.

Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.

Have you been to Mecca? Have you circled around the Kaaba? Kissed it? Do you bow facing Mecca in worship? When we worship we bow in our hearts and we are facing God in heaven. He is the object of our worship. We have no idols. Do you know what the Kaaba was before Muhammed started Islam?
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  #20  
Old 03-26-2009, 02:39 PM
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JN Anderson JN Anderson is offline
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Re: Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Do you know what the Kaaba was before Muhammed started Islam?
Million dollar question.
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