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  #121  
Old 03-15-2013, 06:21 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

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Originally Posted by trialedbyfire View Post
Congratulations. I go to a church with 1,500 members in a large building in Maryland. We have bills to pay and lights to keep on, we also feed many homeless in DC, reach the lost through dozens of outreach programs daily, preach on the streets of DC, clothe hundreds of needy. I'm not knocking house churches or whatever, however it seems like you're acting as if traditional churches that are run on the tithes and offerings of it's people are worthless and don't effect change in their communities at all. And not mentioning the MASSIVE impact that churches and church organizations have on communities EVERY DAY in charitable donations alone when talking about them as "money making machines" is pretty intellectually dishonest.
You will find an aversion to tithing in the house church movement.
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‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
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  #122  
Old 03-15-2013, 06:25 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Well, I stand corrected. The original post is false. I misunderstood what I was told about the resolution. DKB communicated this week to clarify:

Quote:
Communications technology continues to change so that the statements of principle in the
Articles of Faith and in the Constitution can best be applied more specifically
by explanations in a Position Paper.

Media Technology

Adopted by the General Board in 2012

Our elders took an important, principled, and correct stand against the evils of television in 1954 when they adopted the fourth paragraph on holiness in our Articles of Faith in response to the invention of television and other changes in society. It follows that we need to enunciate the principles upon which our elders acted and apply them in light of technological changes and more complex choices today. Specifically, traditional television is now merging with other technologies that we have accepted, such as computers, online media, satellite and cable deliveries, media players, smart phones, tablets, and game consoles. Moreover, some forms of video technology are obsolete but new forms have been invented and are continuing to be invented.

Therefore we must give appropriate guidance to a new generation of believers with regard to all use of communications technology in language that is understandable and meaningful to them so we can continue to uphold our position on holiness of life and holiness in the use of all communications technology. In view of the symbolic nature of media for our movement, we must be careful not to signal any compromise of belief or lifestyle.

The United Pentecostal Church International accepts only the Bible and the Holy Spirit as its guides to determine the correct standards of conduct in this world, and it recognizes the responsibility to apply biblical principles in a changing world. Neither the Bible nor the United Pentecostal Church International teaches that salvation can be earned by good works, but both contend that holiness in behavior results from a transforming experience of the Holy Ghost, and is therefore incumbent upon each Christian. The church has an obligation to establish standards of conduct when necessary, but it refuses to make rules for every aspect of daily living. Each Christian is responsible to God to maintain holiness in his or her life, for God alone is the judge, but the church is also responsible to teach biblical standards of holiness. Holiness as a spiritual experience and a way of life is not an option for a Christian, but a biblical injunction. (See II Corinthians 7:1; Romans 12:1-2; John 17:14-16; I John 2:15-16; Ephesians 5:11.)

It is very evident that spirituality and holiness are deeply entwined together. The Scriptures teach that carnality is enmity toward God. The use of media must therefore be carefully considered so that we do not take the beautiful truths of God into areas that will contribute to the downfall of a child of God. The influence of sinful media programming is so grave and damaging to Christian living that conscience demands it be battled in a principled way. The biblical safeguard against rapid cultural or technological change is to build upon timeless principles. Scripture elegantly solves the proper management of media technology with a single verse: “I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes” (Psalm 101:3). A consistent and principled position on media programming does not constitute a threat to our core stand on issues of separation from the world, but only strengthens our position by casting in principle the manner in which we are already solving this issue in practice.

Second, the General Board voted to bring to the General Conference a resolution to change UPCI General Constitution, Article VII, Section 7, Paragraphs 31 and 32. The resolution will be finalized by the Legislative Committee of the General Board for approval by the Executive Board in May, after which it will be presented to the Resolutions Committee. I have also been told that others may be submitting one or more resolutions on this subject. Since the Resolutions Committee has discretion on the submission of all resolutions, including modification or combination of resolutions, it would be premature to discuss exact wording. Essentially, however, the proposed resolution would refer to all media instead of simply television and video, and it would strictly limit the use of all media technology to educational, religious, inspirational, and family content that is consistent with wholesome Christian principles. It would further prohibit the use of television or other media technology for the purpose of viewing worldly, carnal and unwholesome media. I would like to explain the intention of the General Board in this matter.
There is no proposal to change the Articles of Faith, which state that "we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes." The Articles of Faith govern the rest of the Manual as well as any other policies or resolutions.

As stated in the Position Paper, the General Board does not seek to change our stand for holiness but instead to apply the same principles to all media technology.

The resolution is not proposed because of a desire to change our position but because technology has rendered our present language inadequate and in some cases obsolete. For example, someone sent me a recent article by a secular journalist who does not own a television. She found that a wide variety of TV programming is available on the Internet, and much of it is free. Thus, if she chooses to watch a particular TV program or highlight, she does so on her laptop. My conclusion is that Christians should not have television sets in their homes, but it is possible to watch some programming on various other devices, and in such cases Christians should be consistent in all use of media. The same holiness principles should apply regardless of the mode of delivery.

There is a consensus that we cannot ignore this issue and that the ministerial constituency needs to deliberate and decide on the best course of action, instead of the General Board simply making a decision.The General Board was not unanimous in approving the specific resolution to be proposed (it had a two-thirds majority), but it was unanimous in adopting the Position Paper and in now sending it to the General Conference for a vote. In essence, the proposed resolution is an attempt to apply the principles of the Position Paper to the Constitution.

Any action that is currently contrary to our position of holiness will still be contrary to our position if the proposed resolution is passed.

No one should characterize this proposal as a first step toward changing our teaching on practical applications of scriptural holiness, such as modesty, jewelry, makeup, or hair. As clearly expressed in the General Board discussion, that is not the intention.

The UPCI has the most conservative position regarding television of all major Oneness Pentecostal organizations. This will remain true even if the current proposal is adopted.

For many of us, this issue has symbolic significance, but we should focus on the substance. People of my generation are "digital immigrants." We grew up without computers, cell phones, MP3 players, tablets, or the Internet. As United Pentecostals we grew up without television and movies. Our children or grandchildren, however, are "digital natives." They grew up in a media-saturated culture and learned to use the latest digital tools as they grew. Although they too were raised without television and with strict limitations on video, they have been exposed to a variety of audiovisual input every day from school, friends, the Internet, social media, and YouTube. What I call a monitor they call a television, and what I call a video or a DVD they call a movie, because that is how their peers speak. To me these words are both symbolic and substantive, so I am careful how I use both the words and the objects. They embrace the same principles of holiness, but the terms and technology are not as symbolic for them-just part of everyday culture. I don't say this to minimize the importance of our discussion but to appeal for thoughtful, prayerful deliberation. Let us listen carefully to one another to discern our true meaning and purpose. Ultimately, we realize this matter cannot be fully resolved by legislation but only by a godly conscience and a heart for God.

Finally, it is important to follow biblical principles in our discussion. How we decide could be as significant as exactly what we decide. If we are right in our stand but wrong in our spirit, then we are wrong. We need a healthy, mature process to ensure a positive example to younger ministers, the integrity of the outcome, and the credibility of our movement. We should discuss policy issues of this nature with respect for everyone, without threatening either apostolic identity or apostolic unity. A few may support a resolution like this in a misguided effort to compromise our identity, and a few may oppose one because of a legalistic understanding of holiness; but I believe the vast majority want to do what is right and what is best, regardless of how they ultimately vote. We should not impugn motives or character, revile, or sow discord. Human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires (James 1:20). We need heavenly wisdom-which is pure, peaceable (peace loving), gentle (considerate), easily entreated (willing to yield), full of mercy and good fruits, without any partiality or hypocrisy (James 3:17). As shown in Acts 15, there is a biblical process of ministers coming together in conference for careful, thorough, prayerful consideration. Let's not short-circuit this process by prejudging the outcome in personal conversations or on social media.
Our Fundamental Doctrine, the most important part of our Articles of Faith, instructs us to seek unity in this matter: "We shall endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body." Let us pray that, after considering potentially strong differences of opinion, like the church in Acts 15 we can reach a consensus that seems "good to the Holy Ghost and to us."

Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead anyone. My bad.
__________________

‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
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  #123  
Old 03-15-2013, 07:55 PM
webe123 webe123 is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
I have not seen that hypocrisy much. Either they are able to use both responsibly and think the wording should be changed to reflect modern day technology.
Well just because YOU have not seen it does not mean I have! And thus my posting!

There are churches I can tell you of that call it the "idiot box" because they actually think of people who watch TV as idiots! it is saying "Only an idiot would watch TV".

You don't think THAT attitude is just a little judgemental? I call it as I see it HYPOCRITICAL. Nothing more to be said on that subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Or they reject prettying all shows and entertainment and use the Internet for quite limited research and email etc. Are there some ministers who watch debauchery on The internet then kick out their members for owning TV? I'm am sure that has happened but I don't know any.
Again, just because you personally don't "know any" does not mean you can dismiss it, because the attitude does exsist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Changing the language would really not change anything at all in terms watching habits There would be no mandate for churches to liberalize what they teach at all.
You are dead wrong on that one! If t6hey changed the language, it would help heal the divide that exsists between those who have a TV and use it responsibly and those acting like idiots and calling people names that have one.

Again, it would not hurt my feelings any at all if those people decided to move out of the UPCI! If it really troubles them that much, then they need to get out.
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  #124  
Old 03-15-2013, 07:58 PM
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Pressing-On Pressing-On is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
Well, I stand corrected. The original post is false. I misunderstood what I was told about the resolution. DKB communicated this week to clarify:



Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead anyone. My bad.
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  #125  
Old 03-15-2013, 08:06 PM
webe123 webe123 is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
Well, I stand corrected. The original post is false. I misunderstood what I was told about the resolution. DKB communicated this week to clarify:



Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead anyone. My bad.
So what that basically states is: the FACT that they REALIZE TV can be had on other platforms...that it is NOT the 1950's anymore and that people have grown UP with technology, while elderly people did not!

I still think the TV thing is very devisive and some people use it as a whipping stick to beat others into submission, which I think is not only wrong, but against the principles of the bible!

And the reporter that does not have a TV also stated that she can watch anything she wants to...ON THE INTERNET! So it is not like she has given up TV completely.

Frankly, I think is a different generation, it IS more educated and thinks for itself more.

Frankly I still see the TV thing as a wrong way to do things and hope that language is taken out.

But the vote has not been taken YET...so it could go either way.

Last edited by webe123; 03-15-2013 at 08:09 PM.
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  #126  
Old 03-16-2013, 01:24 PM
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BrotherEastman BrotherEastman is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Just got an e-mail from the UPC headquarters, they are not changing their stand on television according to DKB. God bless.
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  #127  
Old 03-16-2013, 04:28 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123 View Post
Well just because YOU have not seen it does not mean I have! And thus my posting!

There are churches I can tell you of that call it the "idiot box" because they actually think of people who watch TV as idiots! it is saying "Only an idiot would watch TV".

You don't think THAT attitude is just a little judgemental? I call it as I see it HYPOCRITICAL. Nothing more to be said on that subject.

Again, just because you personally don't "know any" does not mean you can dismiss it, because the attitude does exsist.



You are dead wrong on that one! If t6hey changed the language, it would help heal the divide that exsists between those who have a TV and use it responsibly and those acting like idiots and calling people names that have one.

Again, it would not hurt my feelings any at all if those people decided to move out of the UPCI! If it really troubles them that much, then they need to get out.
Uh... I did not mention you. If I quoted you it was reference to the talking points - nothing more.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #128  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:12 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123 View Post
Well just because YOU have not seen it does not mean I have! And thus my posting!

There are churches I can tell you of that call it the "idiot box" because they actually think of people who watch TV as idiots! it is saying "Only an idiot would watch TV".

You don't think THAT attitude is just a little judgemental? I call it as I see it HYPOCRITICAL. Nothing more to be said on that subject.
I don't. Non UPCers refer to it as the idiot box. Not because you are an idiot if you watch it but because of the often dumbed down content found on it

It's also been called the boob tube. It's an American slang term not a UPC one
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  #129  
Old 03-16-2013, 09:07 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
Well, I stand corrected. The original post is false. I misunderstood what I was told about the resolution. DKB communicated this week to clarify:



Sorry. I didn't mean to mislead anyone. My bad.
This is not different than I assumed it would be Deacon. I figured the language would be expanded to include other media.

It makes sense I suppose, and still leaves the ultimate responsibility to the parents to determine what is wholesome, and family content.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #130  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:35 AM
Max Cosme Max Cosme is offline
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Re: UPC Resolution to Remove TV from Manual

Deacon no need to apologize. The misleading is Bernard's.

This last communication from the bishop is classic Bernardese.

Any subsequent amended Holiness article which removes the wording "television sets" is a big change from his elders intents who specifically targeted the device in people's homes.

It reads like his 2007 letters as South Texas Superintendent when the TV advertising amendement, ultimately passed

What this proposed resolution, in his own words, will say, is that they will come out against all unwholesome CONTENT on all forms of media.

He is interpreting the elder's original intent while saying it's not compromise. Read David Gray's once required ministerial book, Questions Pentecostal's as Ask, for an orginal merger member's view on owning a television in your home. As he was in favor for the Holiness change in 1954, as well.

This new resolution would sound like canned statement one could expect from Focus on the Family against inappropriate content. Very similar to the ALJC's.

It placates in some way all sides. Liberals and moderates will say we have these devices but monitor its content. The cons can feel their organization preaches against television. In reality, it does not.

HE IS A LAWYER, FIRST. A WORD MAGICIAN.

Of course such a resolution BY DEFAULT takes away the previous prohibition on not having the devices in their homes.

By making this historic change to the Holiness article - The first since 1954, he is being cautious, if not intentionally diplomatic and vague or duplicitious. It's a political game which will still cost him some more conservatives.


Ultimately, this proposed resolution will do as intended. It leaves it up to pastoral and individual discretion. And most importantly, by changing the Holiness article, those who sign the affirmation statement (affirming the holiness and Fundamental Doctrine only) -- ministers will be able to sign WITH INTEGRITY.

Last edited by Max Cosme; 03-17-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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