How To Believe in Oneness

[Timmy]

To say I'm confused would be an understatement. All the debate between Oneness and Trinnies (and the debate among Oneness folks about how evil the Trinnies are) is interesting. But here's the thing: how does one come to believe in Oneness in the first place? Is it by logical reasoning, reading and comprehending the Bible? Is it a matter of intelligence? Do Trinnies have a lower IQ than you guys?

Or is there more to it?

I've read in various places on these forums that there is some kind of "revelation" of the truth. Almost as if to say that God has to reveal the truth to you, before you "get it". If that's so, to whom does God choose to reveal that truth? To anyone that asks? Well, He hasn't revealed it to me, yet, and I've asked! Or is it to whoever is worthy? Guess I'm not worthy. (Can't argue with that!)

But if it is a matter of comprehension, of understanding what you read etc., would anyone like to take another stab at educating me?

I've posted questions elsewhere about this, and I haven't seen good answers yet, or at least not ones I understand! E.g., I've written about the person-like behaviors of the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. The answer was that I was equating God with human beings. I wasn't, but that's OK, I got the point: that I was describing God in human terms. But isn't that also what Oneness does? I.e., describe God in human terms, such as "office" or "manifestation"?

It's been said that God, being divine, is able to manifest Himself simultaneously in different ways, and that is what allows Him to talk to "Himself", etc. OK, that's fine, but how is it not also possible for God, being divine, to miraculously be three persons simultaneously?

More to the point, why does it matter so much if we use the word "person" or "office" or whatever? Does God really care?

Apparently He cares a great deal about certain things, like which words are used at one's baptism (the ones Jesus used or the ones Peter used), so you better guess right! So if that's true, sure, I can see how He might get really mad at someone for saying He is three "persons".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

To say I'm confused would be an understatement. All the debate between Oneness and Trinnies (and the debate among Oneness folks about how evil the Trinnies are) is interesting. But here's the thing: how does one come to believe in Oneness in the first place? Is it by logical reasoning, reading and comprehending the Bible? Is it a matter of intelligence? Do Trinnies have a lower IQ than you guys?

It's basically tradition versus the bible alone. Anyone not primed with tradition of trinity, which came through centuries and centuries since the 4th, would never come up with a trinity of persons in reading the Bible. TRADITION ALONE has caused people to think trinity.

Leave a person on a desert island with a bible, with no former influence of the Bible, and no one to traditionalize their reading, and they would NEVER come up with the trinity. The bible says ONE GOD and GOD IS ONE. Period.

[mfblume]

Another note on traditional influence. Trinity was demanded at PAIN OF excommunication when first contrived, and soon became one at pain of DEATH. That has quite a bit of influence on people. And when death penalty was no longer demanded, the doctrine had done its work -- it was ingrained into people. And no one simply hardly questioned it.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's basically tradition versus the bible alone. Anyone not primed with tradition of trinity, which came through centuries and centuries since the 4th, would never come up with a trinity of persons in reading the Bible. TRADITION ALONE has caused people to think trinity.

Leave a person on a desert island with no former influence of the Bible, and no one to traditionalize their reading, and they would NEVER come up with the trinity. The bible says ONE GOD and GOD IS ONE. Period.

When they read about the Father sending His Son to us, about Jesus talking to His Father ("why hast thou forsaken me", e.g.), and about their different wills ("not my will, but thine, be done"), about the Spirit raising Jesus from the dead, about the Father talking about His Son in whom He is well pleased, etc. etc., they couldn't possibly come up with the idea that these are different persons? Hmm.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

When they read about the Father sending His Son to us, about Jesus talking to His Father ("why hast thou forsaken me", e.g.), and about their different wills ("not my will, but thine, be done"), about the Spirit raising Jesus from the dead, about the Father talking about His Son in whom He is well pleased, etc. etc., they couldn't possibly come up with the idea that these are different persons? Hmm.

Because the bible stressed GOD IS ONE so much. Anyone would realize, like Oneness people teach, that it is God manifesting Himself in various ways. But to say there are three eternal persons, who love each other for eternity, and are aware of each other for eternity and communicate with each other for eternity -- before God created anything -- is more like three gods. And people would realize that.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Timmy

To say I'm confused would be an understatement. All the debate between Oneness and Trinnies (and the debate among Oneness folks about how evil the Trinnies are) is interesting. But here's the thing: how does one come to believe in Oneness in the first place? Is it by logical reasoning, reading and comprehending the Bible? Is it a matter of intelligence? Do Trinnies have a lower IQ than you guys?

Or is there more to it?

I've read in various places on these forums that there is some kind of "revelation" of the truth. Almost as if to say that God has to reveal the truth to you, before you "get it". If that's so, to whom does God choose to reveal that truth? To anyone that asks? Well, He hasn't revealed it to me, yet, and I've asked! Or is it to whoever is worthy? Guess I'm not worthy. (Can't argue with that!)

But if it is a matter of comprehension, of understanding what you read etc., would anyone like to take another stab at educating me?

I've posted questions elsewhere about this, and I haven't seen good answers yet, or at least not ones I understand! E.g., I've written about the person-like behaviors of the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. The answer was that I was equating God with human beings. I wasn't, but that's OK, I got the point: that I was describing God in human terms. But isn't that also what Oneness does? I.e., describe God in human terms, such as "office" or "manifestation"?

It's been said that God, being divine, is able to manifest Himself simultaneously in different ways, and that is what allows Him to talk to "Himself", etc. OK, that's fine, but how is it not also possible for God, being divine, to miraculously be three persons simultaneously?

More to the point, why does it matter so much if we use the word "person" or "office" or whatever? Does God really care?

Apparently He cares a great deal about certain things, like which words are used at one's baptism (the ones Jesus used or the ones Peter used), so you better guess right! So if that's true, sure, I can see how He might get really mad at someone for saying He is three "persons".

Hi Timmy,I pray In Jesus name that he will now open your understanding to this truth.I will post the next post about the trinity and oneness teaching.I'm very concerned about your thought.To start with both the trinity and oneness teach many things wrong because over the years both has been taught by man and not God.The # 1 reason that man can't see truth is because sin in their life blind them to truth.Another reason is that many people who think they have the Spirit do not and the word says the Spirit will teach us and the Spirit is truth and in him is no lie.

ICor.2:009 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 002:010But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 002:011For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 002:012Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 002:013Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 002:014But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 002:015But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 002:016For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
003:001 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 003:002I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 003:003For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

(Them that sin are forever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth.)
2 Tim:2:018 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 002:019Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 002:020But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 002:021If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 002:022Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 002:023But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 002:024And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 002:025In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 002:026And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
003:001 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 003:002For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 003:003Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 003:004Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 003:005Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 003:006For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 003:007Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

(Sin will darken your understanding) Eph.4:011And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 004:012For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 004:013Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 004:014That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 004:015But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 004:016From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 004:017This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 004:018Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart

(Them that practice sin or are lost are blinded to truth) 2 Cor.4:001 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 004:002But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 004:003But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 004:004In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

1 John 2:[26] These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him

John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's basically tradition versus the bible alone. Anyone not primed with tradition of trinity, which came through centuries and centuries since the 4th, would never come up with a trinity of persons in reading the Bible. TRADITION ALONE has caused people to think trinity.

Leave a person on a desert island with a bible, with no former influence of the Bible, and no one to traditionalize their reading, and they would NEVER come up with the trinity. The bible says ONE GOD and GOD IS ONE. Period.

You can not lump all the trinitarians together in that they are just following traditions. Some might but there are alot of them that really believe what they believe. I am oneness from top to bottom, but to discount all of them as just following a tradition is not correct. I have talked extensively with some trinitarians and they verses they use and quote are valid, but once you know Jesus is God then the verses really fit together nicely. So they get their ideals from the Bible, but it is just misunderstood or misinterperatation of scripture.

[Joelel]

Hi Timmy,One thing the oneness teach wrong about their oneness teaching is.#1,They say Jesus is the father God,that is not totally correct.Jesus is ONLY the Fathers woed.Only the Word of the father was made flesh.The Spirit of the Father is IN the Son Jesus.When Jesus the word of God died ONLY the word died.The father or Spirit of God did not die.When Jesus the Son the word of God died he gave up the ghost or Spirit of God.

The word of God is God because it is his word but his word is not Spirit.It is spirit with a small s because it shows God's word is his and comes from God.

John1: 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2: The same was in the beginning with God.

14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

1 Cor.5:19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Acts3:[26] Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities

See here, the Spirit that is IN the Son Jesus raised him from the dead.Also the Same Spirit is IN us but we are not the Father as Jesus the Son is not the Father but the Father is IN Jesus and the Father is IN us.
Rom.8:[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

John.19
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

This is why the trinity don't agree with the oneness.The we have the trinity and the oneness don't teach Jesus is the family name.

Is there a separation between the Father and Son ? Yes.There is a family.Look at it this way. I am my mother and father,Both of them are IN me but they are still their own separate being.It's the same with the Father God and his Son.Did all the fullness of God dwell in the Son ? Yes.God is a Spirit,the fullness of the Spirit can be in Jesus and everywhere at the same time.God is IN me and all true believers,does that make God more then one ? no. Same one God in all of us even though we are separate people.Did God the Father send his Son as the scripture teaches ? Yes. The Spirit of God sent his word.Did the Son ascend to the Father ? Yes.The Word of God the Son ascended to the Father the Spirit.Is there one God ? Yes. The Spirit and his word is one God.

Are Father Son and Holy Ghost names? No,They are titles. Jesus said to baptize in the name. What is the Son's name? It's Jesus, Isn't It?

Jesus didn't come in his own name.Jesus Said In 1 John 5 ;43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.( Here we find Jesus came in his Fathers name ,So his Father's name is Jesus ? )

The Father sent the Holy Ghost in his Son's name.John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, .( Here we find The Father Sent the Holy Ghost In Jesus name,So the Holy Ghost name Is Jesus.)

Eph.3:014 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 003:015 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, ( Here we find the whole family is named after the Father.( So Jesus Is A family name and is the name of the Father Son And Holy Ghost.)

Who did the Son inherit his name from?You don't inherit something from yourself.Heb.1:004 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. ( We find here Jesus Inherited his name from the Father. What name does a Son Inherit? The family name.)

[Timmy]

Ah, I'm beginning to understand! It is sin that blinds the Trinnies to the truth! Yes! I get it now!

(I could cut and paste the above to an analogous discussion on a Trinny forum, replacing "Trinnies" with "Oneness folks" and it would be just as valid there.)

Everyone has sin. How is it that this sin blinds some to the truth, and not others? Why does God lead some into truth and not others? How can one be held responsible for not seeing something when, as you say, they are blind? Or they have not been chosen by God to be enlightened?

Do you really believe that Trinnies are so evil that they intentionally allow sin (or whatever else) to hide the truth from them? Even just choosing the wrong side in this debate is, apparently, sin, correct? What is their motivation for such "sin" as not believing the Oneness doctrine? Sin typically has some lure, some perceived (albeit selfish and fleeting) benefit. Do Trinnies, in your view, just love to wallow in error, getting some kind of pleasure from doing so? "Ah," they must be saying, "gotta love being wrong! It sure feels good!"

I think what I'm really getting from all this is that it is simply a matter of understanding. We each read the same Bible and get different things from it, for this issue as well as any number of other things. Some will see trinity. Some will see oneness. Some, like me, will not see a clear win either way, and be content to conclude that there is a certain "threeness" in God's nature and, simultaneously, a "oneness" in God's nature. That truth cannot be denied by either side. (Can it??)

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Joelel

( We find here Jesus Inherited his name from the Father. What name does a Son Inherit? The family name.)

Uh, yeah, and usually a family consists of more than one person.