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  #61  
Old 12-02-2020, 02:11 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Spiritual Israel and the church are the same. Natural Israel is lost in sin.
Agreed.
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  #62  
Old 12-02-2020, 03:27 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Spiritual Israel and the church are the same. Natural Israel is lost in sin.
Many mistakenly believe the church is a separate entity from Israel. That is incorrect. The church is the 12 tribes of Israel which have entered the new covenant. The church has always been Israel since the Exodus, and still is. Israel is the BRIDE:

Jeremiah 3:12-14 KJV
Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord ; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord ; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Israel was divorced by God:

Isaiah 50:1 KJV
Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Jeremiah 3:6-8 KJV
The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. [7] And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. [8] And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Israel was to be restored under Messiah:

Hosea 1:9-11 KJV
Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. [10] Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. [11] Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

This began to be fulfilled in the first century new covenant ekklesia:

Romans 9:22-26 KJV
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

So the church is in fact reclaimed Israel, operating under the new covenant:

Ephesians 2:12-13 KJV
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The church is a part of Israel, it is that part which has entered the new covenant and which holds legal title to the name of Israel as the betrothed of God. It is described here:

Revelation 12:17 KJV
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The modern errorists insist upon a clearly unbiblical narrative: "God had a bride in the old testament, Israel, but He divorced her and took a completely different bride in the new testament, the Church."

Sorry, but that is completely unbiblical. God had a bride in the old testament, Israel, and yes He divorced her. But He promised she would be brought back to Him.

Paul explained how the law has authority over a person until they die. So that a woman, married to a man, if she leaves her husband and shacks up or "marries" another man is an adulteress. Why? Because she is bound by the law to her first husband. But what happens if the husband dies? According to Paul and common sense, she is loosed from her first husband and is free to marry another.

Israel's husband incarnated and DIED. She was free from her first marriage. Is she free to marry somebody else? A pagan god? Her husband RESURRECTED so she could REMARRY HIM.

The Law says:
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
(Deu 24:1-4)
The first husband had to die (and raise again) in order for God to reclaim His Bride. She had to be released from the law of marriage that prevented their reunion. Moreover, SHE has to die as well, which is what baptism is all about.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)
The church is new covenant Israel. Not a new entity that calls itself Israel, but Israel from the old testament entered into the new covenant. The church is not a separate entity from Israel.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(Rev 12:1)
Compare:
Thou art beautiful, O my love, as Tirzah, comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners. Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me: thy hair is as a flock of goats that appear from Gilead. Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing, whereof every one beareth twins, and there is not one barren among them. As a piece of a pomegranate are thy temples within thy locks. There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number. My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded. Or ever I was aware, my soul made me like the chariots of Amminadib. Return, return, O Shulamite; return, return, that we may look upon thee. What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of two armies.
(Son 6:4-13)
Remember, Israel, the beloved bride of Jehovah, consisted of TWO HOUSES (Judah, and the rest of the tribes called Israel). Two hosts or armies, but ONE BELOVED BRIDE.

The twelve stars are the twelve tribes. The sun and moon are an allusion to Jacob and Rachel:

And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
(Gen 37:9-10)
The sun and moon can certainly be compared to other things, as the "glory of God which clothes her and the glory of man which is under her feet". And certainly she is clothed with CHRIST who is the brightness and glory of the invisible God. But if anything these additional comparisons simply strengthen the fact that the woman is Israel, the BIDE OF JEHOVAH.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Rev 12:5)
Whom did Israel bring forth? Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron? Who was in danger of being destroyed by the devil and the power of darkness, but who triumphed in victory and ASCENDED TO THE THRONE OF GOD? None other than Christ.

Is the church in view here? YES, insofar that the church is IN CHRIST:

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
(Rev 2:26-27)
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
(Rev 3:21)
The Bride is ISRAEL:

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(Rev 21:12)
The Bride is Israel UNDER THE NEW COVENANT:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(Rev 21:14)
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(Rev 12:17)
[/QUOTE]
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  #63  
Old 12-02-2020, 03:36 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
A text has only one-meaning.

What you referring to is the doctrine of double (or dual) fulfillment. That doctrine stays that a prophecy could have an initial sort of fulfillment indicating a shadow of a complete fulfillment in the future.
A prophecy is a candidate to be a double fulfillment one if you see that they "almost" got fulfilled in the past but not completely.

You can definitely see it as "incorrect" doctrine and say that, no, they were not fulfilled and there is only one fulfillment. Totally legit, but it is just semantics.
Indeed so. The problem with dual meanings is it takes away from the intended meaning. It is like if you or I say something and our friends add to it to say something else. We would be annoyed at them to say the least. Imagine how God thinks when we say that He said something that He did not say.
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  #64  
Old 12-02-2020, 03:59 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
[indent] Many mistakenly believe the church is a separate entity from Israel. That is incorrect. ...
Rom 9-11 explains the relationship between Israel and the Church very clearly. There is an elect Israel and a blinded Israel. The elect Israel is part of the Church of Christ, the blinded Israel is not.

Romans 11:1-2 (NKJV) 1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Romans 11:5 (NKJV) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:7 (NKJV) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


Then there is a salvation moment for all Israel as a nation:

Romans 11:25-26 (NKJV) 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


In that passage, the Israel mentioned includes the blinded people. If you don't change the meaning of "Israel" in that paragraph (like saying Israel in verse 26 changes its meaning to the "elect Israel") you will see that all Israel as a nation, including the blinded people, will be saved.

The question here is what "saved" in the context of a physical nation means.
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  #65  
Old 12-02-2020, 05:00 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Rom 9-11 explains the relationship between Israel and the Church very clearly. There is an elect Israel and a blinded Israel. The elect Israel is part of the Church of Christ, the blinded Israel is not.
Yes, although I would say the elect IS the church, not "part" of the church. Unbelieving Israelites are not in the church, and do not hold lawful title to the name "Israel". This is why Paul said "they are not all Israel who are of Israel."

Quote:
Then there is a salvation moment for all Israel as a nation:

Romans 11:25-26 (NKJV) 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


In that passage, the Israel mentioned includes the blinded people. If you don't change the meaning of "Israel" in that paragraph (like saying Israel in verse 26 changes its meaning to the "elect Israel") you will see that all Israel as a nation, including the blinded people, will be saved.

The question here is what "saved" in the context of a physical nation means.
I do not believe it is speaking of a salvation "moment." Many read it as "until the fullness of the gentiles are come in, and then all Israel will get saved." But that is not what it says. It says "and SO all Israel shall be saved."

The word "so" means "thus, in this manner". What manner? That which is stated in the previous verse, which says " Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles be come in." THAT is how "all Israel shall be saved", by the fullness of the gentiles coming in. The fullness of the gentiles coming in is how "all Israel shall be saved."

The word gentiles means simply "nations". So the fullness of the nations coming in is how all Israel shall be saved.

The word fullness is pleroma. It is related to pletho, meaning multitude, company (host), or fullness (per the Greek Old Testament). Both words are used in the Greek Old Testament to translate the Hebrew word melo, which appears in Genesis 48:19, which is a prophecy concerning Ephraim becoming a "multitude of nations".

The tribe of Ephraim was to become a multitude of nations. Or, a multitude of gentiles. Once the nations descended from Jacob have come in (to the new covenant), all Israel will be saved. All Israel will be saved by the fullness (completion) of the company/multitude of nations descended from all 12 tribes coming in.
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  #66  
Old 12-02-2020, 05:11 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Indeed so. The problem with dual meanings is it takes away from the intended meaning. It is like if you or I say something and our friends add to it to say something else. We would be annoyed at them to say the least. Imagine how God thinks when we say that He said something that He did not say.
There is only one grammatical meaning to any text, whether of Scripture or anything else. However, a text can contain within itself multiple layers of principles, having multiple applications.

In regards to prophecy, a prophecy is a revelation of the will and intent of God. Since God does all things by wisdom, a prophecy provides a glimpse into the Divine Reasoning or Wisdom that is the cause of the prophesied event coming to pass. As a result, we can discover the principles that underlie what we call reality. We can discern patterns, several different events following similar patterns, or demonstrating certain principles that are expressed in various prophecies.

Some interpret that to mean "dual" or "multiple fulfillments" of prophecy. I look at it more as multiple layers of truth with applications to many situations, while keeping in mind that a prophecy always has a specific historical event in view, unless otherwise indicated in the text.
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Old 12-02-2020, 05:44 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
There is only one grammatical meaning to any text, whether of Scripture or anything else. However, a text can contain within itself multiple layers of principles, having multiple applications.

In regards to prophecy, a prophecy is a revelation of the will and intent of God. Since God does all things by wisdom, a prophecy provides a glimpse into the Divine Reasoning or Wisdom that is the cause of the prophesied event coming to pass. As a result, we can discover the principles that underlie what we call reality. We can discern patterns, several different events following similar patterns, or demonstrating certain principles that are expressed in various prophecies.

Some interpret that to mean "dual" or "multiple fulfillments" of prophecy. I look at it more as multiple layers of truth with applications to many situations, while keeping in mind that a prophecy always has a specific historical event in view, unless otherwise indicated in the text.
They taught us 1 interpretation with many applications, which became many interpretations and many applications. Spiritualization of scripture is the root cause of denominational-isms. They all think something can also mean other things too.
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Old 12-02-2020, 06:28 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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They taught us 1 interpretation with many applications, which became many interpretations and many applications. Spiritualization of scripture is the root cause of denominational-isms. They all think something can also mean other things too.
John 6:63 KJVS
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


John 3:6 KJVS
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Galatians 3:3 KJVS
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Revelation 2:29 KJVS
[29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 1:10 KJVS
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.


Enjoy your carnal, physical kingdom.
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Last edited by Nicodemus1968; 12-02-2020 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 12-02-2020, 07:21 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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They taught us 1 interpretation with many applications, which became many interpretations and many applications. Spiritualization of scripture is the root cause of denominational-isms. They all think something can also mean other things too.
It's called "midrash", it's a rabbinical interpretive approach that results in whatever far flung fantasy the interpreter can come up with. That's what you are describing. It has infected a lot of Christendom. We've seen it here on this thread, even.

Application of scripture can be tricky, hence Peter's warning about how the unstable wrest the scriptures to their own doom.
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Old 12-02-2020, 07:22 PM
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Re: The Manchild Ministry 45 Minutes

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
John 6:63 KJVS
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


John 3:6 KJVS
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Galatians 3:3 KJVS
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Revelation 2:29 KJVS
[29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 1:10 KJVS
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.


Enjoy your physical kingdom.
The contrary to spiritual isn't "physical", but "carnal" and "natural".
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