Wayne Grudem-Trinitarian Madness

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Jay

Actually, it would be incorrect theology to structure the oneness position the way you just did. God has taken on many names throughout history, but Jesus was the name He took when He came to redeem humanity from sin. To say that Jesus was then name of the Father in the Old Testament would be in error. He actually says that his name is Yaweh (Jehovah in English), and then later adds to that name according to His attribute displayed (healer, peace, banner, etc.). When it came time for Him to finish the work of atonement, He came as one of us, took the name Jesus (meaning Jehovah/Yaweh saves, staying in keeping with the prior thought), and then died.

The Father and the Son are not the same as one refers to Spirit and the other to flesh. However, as both were united in Jesus, the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit would be Jesus. For this reason Paul states, "Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh..." The oneness position entirely rejects the Trinitarian construct of an eternal, pre-existant, pre-incarnate God the Son.

I do hold to the fact that Jesus was eternally existent with the Father as the Son before His incarnation. I get this from passages such as :
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. — John 1:1 (KJV)

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. — John 14:23 (KJV)



Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: — Philippians 2:6 (KJV)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: — Philippians 2:9 (KJV)
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. — Philippians 2:11 (KJV)

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: — Colossians 1:12 (KJV)
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: — Colossians 1:13 (KJV)
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: — Colossians 1:15 (KJV)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: — Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. — Colossians 1:17 (KJV)
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; — Colossians 1:19 (KJV)

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, — Hebrews 1:1 (KJV)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; — Hebrews 1:2 (KJV)
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? — Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. — Hebrews 1:8 (KJV)

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? — Proverbs 30:4 (KJV

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Farfel

Why are we making God into a math problem? Why are we trying to put God in a box with our limited minds? He created us, why are we trying to create Him?

We are not attempting to make God a mathematical equation. This was done when the doctrine of Trinitarianism was developed in the second and third centuries. By declaring there to be three co-equal persons with one substance, and declaring that they had a single Deity, the mathematics of the situation were already laid into place. Due to the logical nature that God gave man, it is not a stretch to analyze a doctrine that uses a philisophical formula via philosophical formulae.

[Michael The Disciple]

Luke

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? — Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)

This is my strongest case against "eternal Son" doctrine. The Son was begotten. Either Oneness is right that this refers to the incarnation, or Arians are right that the Son was the first begotten separate person from God before time.

Trinitarians rule themselves out of the picture on this verse.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is my strongest case against "eternal Son" doctrine. The Son was begotten. Either Oneness is right that this refers to the incarnation, or Arians are right that the Son was the first begotten separate person from God before time.

Trinitarians rule themselves out of the picture on this verse.

I understand what you mean, but the term "eternal" is a sticky one. If he has no end, is he eternal? From here out, i'd say yes.

However, I think Jesus, or the son, has a beginning. When/where that beginning is, is my dilemna. Does the fact he has a beginning exclude him from being eternal?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I understand what you mean, but the term "eternal" is a sticky one. If he has no end, is he eternal? From here out, i'd say yes.

However, I think Jesus, or the son, has a beginning. When/where that beginning is, is my dilemna. Does the fact he has a beginning exclude him from being eternal?

Paul said the world was created by Jesus.

[Jermyn Davidson]

The Word was in the begining with the Creator.

Does it ever strike anyone else curious that the worlds were spoken into existence and Jesus Christ, Son of the Living GOD is the WORD of GOD?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is my strongest case against "eternal Son" doctrine. The Son was begotten. Either Oneness is right that this refers to the incarnation, or Arians are right that the Son was the first begotten separate person from God before time.

Trinitarians rule themselves out of the picture on this verse.

So in light of vrs 8 are you saying that God had a beginning point?

Also how can one deny the eternalness of Jesus as the Son in light of this passage:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Notice the only thing before His existence is nothing since He is before all things.

He had to create Himself since all things were created by Him.

Also the Father is pleased to in Himself all fullness dewells.

All of these things must be true if Jesus has not always existed as the Son.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Luke

So in light of vrs 8 are you saying that God had a beginning point?

Also how can one deny the eternalness of Jesus as the Son in light of this passage:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Notice the only thing before His existence is nothing since He is before all things.

He had to create Himself since all things were created by Him.

Also the Father is pleased to in Himself all fullness dewells.

All of these things must be true if Jesus has not always existed as the Son.

God had no beginning point but his IMAGE DID. Before creation God had no image because there was no one to have seen him. I believe God did create himself in that sense. He formed the image (Logos) to be everything he was except VISIBLY.

Then when he created other beings they would be able to see him. The word, form, or image is how the Son pre existed. At the incarnation the word became flesh. The word became the Son.

I realize this gets complicated but no more complicated than the belief that a begotten son is actually an eternal son.

[Luke]

But if the Son created all things ( which the passage clearly says in no uncertain terms ) how could He have been created? Also if the Son is before all things by what or who was He created? The only way to answer theses question is to say the Son has eternally existed with the Father.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Luke

But if the Son created all things ( which the passage clearly says in no uncertain terms ) how could He have been created? Also if the Son is before all things by what or who was He created? The only way to answer theses question is to say the Son has eternally existed with the Father.

Well Arians teach he was created before time to be the Creator. That makes more sense to me than teaching there is an eternal son. If the son is eternal HOW is he a son? A son HAS a beginning and thats what verse 5 is saying.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? — Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)

The Father says I will be to him a Father. He will be to me a son.

That indicates this relationship did not exist before this verse 5.

My belief is when he says the Son created all things then he details who the Son who made all things WAS in the beginning.

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb. 1:2-3

When the Son made the worlds he was existing as the brightness of his glory and the express image of HIS PERSON.

In other words the image of the invisible God. Then at the incarnation that image was made flesh fulfilling Heb. 1:5

For a detailed explanation see my video in post 5 of this thread.