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  #51  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:32 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

I think a lot of folks simply use the term "tithe", or " tithes and offerings", to simply mean donations to the church/ministry. So when these people hear "No tithe is taught in the NT!" they assume, or interpret, it to mean "No giving of money, no supporting the church/ministry, is taught in the NT!"

So, maybe a more productive approach (generally speaking) may be to promote unselfish giving of whatever resources one has available, and teaching the agricultural tithe of Israel as a example and principle of community support for 1) teaching and propagation of the Word, 2) orphans, 3) widows, and 4) pilgrims/foreignors visiting the community. As well as the concept of vows and obligations persisting across generations, the idea of representative ("federal") headship, land ownership and the landlord-tenant relationship between God and the nation, etc.
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  #52  
Old 04-14-2019, 04:04 PM
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

When you pray, pray for love of the Truth. Love for His Word. 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10 .
We can deceive ourselves because our perception gets twisted by this flesh we live in. Our bodies love to sin but we cannot lean on our own understanding.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

My pastor told a story of a man who fought for this truth with a passion but because he enjoyed some things contrary to the Word, which is iniquity, he eventually believed another doctrine and left this faith. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. I got to go but ill leave off at this, WE CANNOT BABY THIS FLESH WE LIVE IN, we MUST fast when it wants to SIN. It'll lie to us, bring us straight to hell.
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  #53  
Old 04-14-2019, 08:35 PM
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Ephesians 4:14 KJVS
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight j of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

He is not the author of confusion. If we don't believe scripture, we won't believe if someone was raised from the dead right in front of our eyes. Scary waters your treading on. Push in prayer, He won't let you go without an answer.
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  #54  
Old 04-16-2019, 04:56 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Very good insightful posts here. Thanks Esaias, good stuff.

Spirit&Truth, beware of the pendulum effect. When most people are faced with a truth that shakes their foundation, and they accept it, they tend to distrust the whole foundation and struggle with it for a while. You will need to get over it. You seem already to be progressing towards that. Prayer and fasting as the ApostolicNativ user recommended is the best way to lift up your spiritual life and get a conviction without overreacting in the opposite direction.

I tithed for few decades believing it. However, I always found the tithing doctrine weak and unfounded. I actually went to my pastor to encourage him to present something better than that because I wanted to believe. He never did.

Then I began to get bother by things. The fact that poor churches were criticized for not supporting the pastor with tithes (can't afford tithing, really, but just doing their best). I was poor myself and I can tell you the "percentage is always affordable" thing is a myth. The fact that tithing of the gross is still not accurate (same income can have different tithes because of contractors vs employed, etc..), gifts tithing, etc... sounded to me more and more like legalistic. And also the fact that the New testament taught so much about giving to the poor members, and because of tithing, giving substantially to effectively help them was unaffordable. I personally wasn't able to help my parents at time because I couldn't afford it. That actually hurt me sometimes. Something was wrong in the system. But you know, they tell you you must have faith and keep tithing.

Then, one day in prayer I came to the realization that tithing was not a command of the Lord for the new church. Then I studied deeply the issue and got a better foundation why wasn't. During that time I struggled at times with trusting what I was taught all together. But my experiences with God, the Spirit of the Lord stopped me from going the wrong path. I don't think I struggled as much as you did, but very similar anyways.

I think this happens because of not having full conviction of what you believe, but instead an attitude of trusting and accepting without verifying it. That being said, I think we all go through that stage: you accept the teaching without much questioning because of the excitement, then you mature...

Regarding your ministry, remember that what pleases the Lord is that you win souls and you make disciples. Preaching from the pulpit is a mix of prophesying and making disciples by teaching to a multitude. However, in God's sight, the one-to-one making of disciples is very pleasing to him as well. If you look at it from that perspective, preaching from the pulpit to a congregation is really not that much more pleasing than doing to a few in God's eyes. You are still fulfilling his commandment and in the front-line. You can keep giving a 10% and think of it as your contribution to the local church. You can also tell your Pastor that you want to keep participating in outreach and discipleship but you can't teach about tithing because of your conscientious and would leave that to them.

Whatever you do, you can't stop making disciples. That's a commandment from the Lord. And you can't stop giving to the church and to the members in need. That's an expected repentance fruit. If the pastor is too radical about it, you may need to find another church of your faith. Getting people saved, whether they believe in tithing or not, is more important.

Just my experience. It can be different than yours, but I hope I could give you some encouragement.

Last edited by coksiw; 04-16-2019 at 05:11 PM.
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  #55  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:47 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
Hey everyone. I'm something of a new poster here, although I have lurked on the forums off and on for a few years.

Been in church most of my life (since 5 years old or so) although my family did backslide for a while, at which point I came to God on my own (that is, apart from any push from my parents) when I was 13.

I've been running this race for 13 years now, and I've been very busy! I made up my mind a long time ago that this was the lifestyle for me. I've sat under some of the greatest men of God, and even did a couple years in Bible college. I feel I have a pretty good handle on our doctrine, was a Bible quizzer, and have been involved in ministry (still am), both assistant pastoring for one of our ministries and regularly leading worship and playing instruments.

Anyway, this may be the wrong place to post, but I'm looking for some discussion and prayer. Lately, I've been in a funk and having a crisis of faith of sorts. This all started last year when a close friend of mine, who is a minister, urged me to study the doctrine of tithing for myself and examine the whole counsel of God on the topic for myself. I put it off, because OF COURSE tithing is scriptural and essential for the NT church, right? I felt there was no way I could be wrong; I had studied before and knew all the pro-tithing points. But being a person who believes that we must LOVE the truth, I felt that I should go ahead and examine what I was being shown, because loving the truth means open to being shown that you are wrong.

So, long story short, I came to the conclusion that I was wrong on tithing. I don't really want to get into that topic in particular (thought I can elaborate if needed), this is just part of the journey. It bothered me, because if we are wrong about this, what else are we wrong about? I didn't want it to, but I felt it put me at odds with men of God who I trust with my life and know to be faithful men of God. The whole thing really bugged me, because I felt that it was plain to be seen when studying the scripture, so how could they not see? Fast forward to more recently, and I've found myself in a crisis of faith. I never thought I would be here, but I find myself questioning even core doctrines I have believed (and defended) for my whole adult/teenage life. I will humbly admit that I have even questioned right down to the existence of God, speaking in tongues, and other things, wondering if maybe none of it was real. And I am really ashamed of that. It seems impossible that I could see the things I've seen, and still have a propensity for doubt, but here I am. Deep down I love God, and my whole life has been built on this truth, and I'm just in a weird place.

Unfortunately I'm afraid if I were to bring up my doubts to the leadership at my church, then my ministry could be in jeopardy, and I love to serve and don't want to mess that up. Same goes for close friends.... I just don't want to scare people off or get branded as a heretic or something (I know I'm probably just being dramatic about that). I lead songs, play instruments, and even write songs that have been done in churches, and I don't want to mess all of that up. I just feel so weak right now, and I don't want to complicate things with the other leaders at the church or give an impression of myself that I'm not a true believer or something.

So anyway, I was just wondering if any of those here who perhaps are more experienced than me can chime in. Especially those who are in or have been in ministry. Have you found yourself in a crisis of faith like this before? What did you do to get out of it? I'm even open to books or video series that helped build your faith. Prayers are also much appreciated.

Thanks for reading.
Hi brother .
Except this teaching about tithing (actually i am not against teithing, but the way tithing is used).
I saw other teachings like
1)women preachers and not head coverings
2)Divorce and remarriage|
3) in the particular only congregation i saw a form of modalism or lack to explain the Godhead and so to teach Christ correctly
In the beginning when i first study about those things i just thought "well we are not perfect" , it was not a big deal for me but when i start to speak and give messages in the pulpit i start to fear God and i saw imposible to continue under this Church.
It was nopt easy to leave ,but i did it.
i losse all my friends and also "the opportunity" to Bible School and Ministry.
Now i thank the Lord , because how one should put me in ministry and the same time ordain women?
Anyway i saw it impossible to work for the Lord and the same time accept doctrines that are not of God.
The Organization controls what you should preach aqnd teach ,so any hope to get in Truth were missing.
(i dont know your situation and reasons for leaving, i met people who left their churches exactly for the opposite reasons Yes they left because did not want Truth and Holiness)
But if your reasons are right ,then dont be afraid, what ministry you should do when you know that you will not be free to preach the whole Word?
One last thing that helped me was that i was independent. If you can work a normal job and have a living is the best answer to those problems. Because if they pay you it is getting more difficult for you to disagree . Imagine if your only "job" you knew were preparing sermons all your life and then they throw you out of the church (you loose your job!) or what if you wanted to preach something that they dont like? (you will have the fear of loosing your job and feeding your family).
Those are my thought ..
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  #56  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:23 PM
Spirit&Truth Spirit&Truth is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Very good insightful posts here. Thanks Esaias, good stuff.

Spirit&Truth, beware of the pendulum effect. When most people are faced with a truth that shakes their foundation, and they accept it, they tend to distrust the whole foundation and struggle with it for a while. You will need to get over it. You seem already to be progressing towards that. Prayer and fasting as the ApostolicNativ user recommended is the best way to lift up your spiritual life and get a conviction without overreacting in the opposite direction.

I tithed for few decades believing it. However, I always found the tithing doctrine weak and unfounded. I actually went to my pastor to encourage him to present something better than that because I wanted to believe. He never did.

Then I began to get bother by things. The fact that poor churches were criticized for not supporting the pastor with tithes (can't afford tithing, really, but just doing their best). I was poor myself and I can tell you the "percentage is always affordable" thing is a myth. The fact that tithing of the gross is still not accurate (same income can have different tithes because of contractors vs employed, etc..), gifts tithing, etc... sounded to me more and more like legalistic. And also the fact that the New testament taught so much about giving to the poor members, and because of tithing, giving substantially to effectively help them was unaffordable. I personally wasn't able to help my parents at time because I couldn't afford it. That actually hurt me sometimes. Something was wrong in the system. But you know, they tell you you must have faith and keep tithing.

Then, one day in prayer I came to the realization that tithing was not a command of the Lord for the new church. Then I studied deeply the issue and got a better foundation why wasn't. During that time I struggled at times with trusting what I was taught all together. But my experiences with God, the Spirit of the Lord stopped me from going the wrong path. I don't think I struggled as much as you did, but very similar anyways.

I think this happens because of not having full conviction of what you believe, but instead an attitude of trusting and accepting without verifying it. That being said, I think we all go through that stage: you accept the teaching without much questioning because of the excitement, then you mature...

Regarding your ministry, remember that what pleases the Lord is that you win souls and you make disciples. Preaching from the pulpit is a mix of prophesying and making disciples by teaching to a multitude. However, in God's sight, the one-to-one making of disciples is very pleasing to him as well. If you look at it from that perspective, preaching from the pulpit to a congregation is really not that much more pleasing than doing to a few in God's eyes. You are still fulfilling his commandment and in the front-line. You can keep giving a 10% and think of it as your contribution to the local church. You can also tell your Pastor that you want to keep participating in outreach and discipleship but you can't teach about tithing because of your conscientious and would leave that to them.

Whatever you do, you can't stop making disciples. That's a commandment from the Lord. And you can't stop giving to the church and to the members in need. That's an expected repentance fruit. If the pastor is too radical about it, you may need to find another church of your faith. Getting people saved, whether they believe in tithing or not, is more important.

Just my experience. It can be different than yours, but I hope I could give you some encouragement.
Thanks for this post. Indeed there is a dangerous pendulum effect that can happen. I actually noticed that well before my own questioning (or more reexamining) my beliefs. I have had many friends who got caught up on one false or erroneous teaching, but they ended up so far in the other direction that it just didn't make any rational sense.

I guess for an update to everyone here who replied, I feel that I have mostly settled now. I continued to seek the truth, and to be honest things got much worse than my original post. I found it so difficult to feel or experience God, and even began examining arguments from the atheist spectrum of beliefs. For the first time, some of their arguments were actually making sense, and it was absolutely terrifying. My whole life from 13 years old has been built around belief in God, specifically the Apostolic faith. It felt like I was losing my best friend, like a literal death in my life.

Thankfully, the Lord did not leave me sitting in darkness. All of this started with an earnest desire for truth, and I believe what I went through was necessary for my spiritual development. What I discovered is that there is no way I could let go of my belief in God! God has revealed Himself to me PERSONALLY in so many different ways, that I don't need scientific or philosophical proof of His existence, and I believe this is the way He has designed our world to work! In pride, we think that we can somehow "uncover" God, but in reality it is only God who reveals Himself to us! I literally cannot even have faith without His help. This is both humbling and freeing in the sense that I can now lean more on Jesus and not my flesh. I'm trusting Him to save me and get me through.

Coksiw said "But my experiences with God, the Spirit of the Lord stopped me from going the wrong path." and that was a lot of what happened to me. I looked back on my life and saw so many miracles, things for the most part impossible without God's involvement. I started to realize that faith isn't really faith unless it is tested. If we could prove this is all real, then it wouldn't really be faith, would it? It would just be facts and knowledge.

My beliefs have changed a little in the sense that a lot of particular doctrines I used to just accept on someone else's word are now in a more "undecided" category until I have studied them out myself. Overall it has been a really good thing for me... I am much less disposed to just believe any doctrine that blows through, and I am compelled to search for strong scriptural support for the doctrines that we believe. If the support isn't there, I don't feel bad. I'm not responsible for defending the particular dogmas of any one group, nor am I responsible for "proving" something is true if it isn't. I love and believe on the Lord, and trust that the Spirit is leading me into all truth.
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  #57  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:06 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
Thanks for this post. Indeed there is a dangerous pendulum effect that can happen. I actually noticed that well before my own questioning (or more reexamining) my beliefs. I have had many friends who got caught up on one false or erroneous teaching, but they ended up so far in the other direction that it just didn't make any rational sense.

I guess for an update to everyone here who replied, I feel that I have mostly settled now. I continued to seek the truth, and to be honest things got much worse than my original post. I found it so difficult to feel or experience God, and even began examining arguments from the atheist spectrum of beliefs. For the first time, some of their arguments were actually making sense, and it was absolutely terrifying. My whole life from 13 years old has been built around belief in God, specifically the Apostolic faith. It felt like I was losing my best friend, like a literal death in my life.

Thankfully, the Lord did not leave me sitting in darkness. All of this started with an earnest desire for truth, and I believe what I went through was necessary for my spiritual development. What I discovered is that there is no way I could let go of my belief in God! God has revealed Himself to me PERSONALLY in so many different ways, that I don't need scientific or philosophical proof of His existence, and I believe this is the way He has designed our world to work! In pride, we think that we can somehow "uncover" God, but in reality it is only God who reveals Himself to us! I literally cannot even have faith without His help. This is both humbling and freeing in the sense that I can now lean more on Jesus and not my flesh. I'm trusting Him to save me and get me through.

Coksiw said "But my experiences with God, the Spirit of the Lord stopped me from going the wrong path." and that was a lot of what happened to me. I looked back on my life and saw so many miracles, things for the most part impossible without God's involvement. I started to realize that faith isn't really faith unless it is tested. If we could prove this is all real, then it wouldn't really be faith, would it? It would just be facts and knowledge.

My beliefs have changed a little in the sense that a lot of particular doctrines I used to just accept on someone else's word are now in a more "undecided" category until I have studied them out myself. Overall it has been a really good thing for me... I am much less disposed to just believe any doctrine that blows through, and I am compelled to search for strong scriptural support for the doctrines that we believe. If the support isn't there, I don't feel bad. I'm not responsible for defending the particular dogmas of any one group, nor am I responsible for "proving" something is true if it isn't. I love and believe on the Lord, and trust that the Spirit is leading me into all truth.
Amen!!
[1Co 2:4-5 NKJV] 4 And my speech and my preaching [were] not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
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  #58  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:19 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

I've learned that there is "red pill" and "blue pill" Christianity.

If you take the "red pill" and study the Scriptures you're going to wake up to the reality that most of "Christianity" as we know it is an illusion. It's not "biblical".

Or, you can take the "blue pill" and just go to church and believe as your told.
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  #59  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:26 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Well, I have reviewed all the doctrine taught in the UPCI community, and their vision, and I agree with all of it except for two things:

* Tithing, of course
* Monarchianism in the Church model. I believe that the new testament church had a team of elders (aka overseers, or pastors), not just one salaried person. One overseer may be a short temporal solution to a just started tiny church. There are a ton of benefits regarding check and balances of having a team. Not all UPCI churches follow the monarchianism model. I know of at least one that doesn't.

Other than that, I find everything else fine regarding doctrine (not talking about problems inside specific churches).

Last edited by coksiw; 05-07-2019 at 04:28 PM.
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  #60  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:13 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Well, I have reviewed all the doctrine taught in the UPCI community, and their vision, and I agree with all of it except for two things:

* Tithing, of course
* Monarchianism in the Church model. I believe that the new testament church had a team of elders (aka overseers, or pastors), not just one salaried person. One overseer may be a short temporal solution to a just started tiny church. There are a ton of benefits regarding check and balances of having a team. Not all UPCI churches follow the monarchianism model. I know of at least one that doesn't.

Other than that, I find everything else fine regarding doctrine (not talking about problems inside specific churches).
Ι think that no pastor should start a church .unless is ordained by an Apostle.
Apostles and Prophets are the two "highest" ministries upon the Church is based "20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; .
Imagine if all Churches (the real ones at minimum) were started by an Apostle. That is why we dont preach all the same things..
Anyway i think that the given order of Scriptures are:
Apostles : (one to be Apostle has to meet the Lord (like Paul) so is ordain directly by the Lord (although i see that even Apostles must be recognized and affirmed by the whole Church)
Prophets[/I]: Prophets too are ordained by the Lord
Evangelists: they are ordained by an Apostle and send to preach the Gospel
[I]Pastor
: they are overseers ,they have to be ordained by an Apostle or by someone who has the right to ordain by an Apostle. (see for example how Paul ordained the Evangelist Timothy and then send him to ordain Pastors all over Churches and also Titus at Creata "5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Teachers A Pastor has to be a teacher too but a teacher is not always a Pastor. The teacher ,as you know,is responsible to brake dawn (rightly divide) Scriptures.

Now i dont say that all pastors are not send by God! i believe many of them have a feeling in their hearts to do this job, but the majority of them are not ordained (or confirmed) thats why are not educated and always their teaching slightly differ from pastor to pastor. (but is this the same Spirit ? is it possible that the Spirit reveals different things to different persons? (i dont speak for the amount of revelation everyone has, but when two pastors claim two dioferent poits as God`s revelation to them)
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