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  #61  
Old 05-28-2019, 04:27 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Help With The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I was in a discussion/debate last week in a voice chat forum Paltalk.com. There were about approximately 6-7 Trins vs Two other Oneness believers and myself with another 30-40 Trins either helping their warriors in text or just watching and one or two other Oneness observing. It was pretty typical. Oneness holds the high ground going through the concept of one God and Christ's deity.

Then comes the moment when the Trins think they will prevail as the conversation goes to John 1:1. They present the Logos as the second person of God. They connect to Col. 1:12-16 and Heb. 1:1-3 showing the personality of the Creator and Paul identifying him with the Son.

The UPC brother who invited me to this debate went around with them twice presenting the mainstream Oneness view that the Logos was the plan in Gods mind for Christ.

The Trins hit hard with ridicule showing the Logos as a "him" in creation. This brother dropped out of the discussion. The other Oneness Brother fell apart. In about three straight times at the mic he went berserk, half in tears yelling the rest of his time.

They would continually use the straw man of "modalism" that was long ago thrust upon Sabellius against us. I presented the minority doctrine among Oneness and described true modalism as I see it as in post 10 in this thread.

They hit back with the second mention of God has no article in it therefore the Logos cannot be speaking of God the Father. To them the second time God is mentioned has to do not with God as a "person" but as a quality.

I responded what I have seen in the Interlinears concerning the verse, backed up by the agreement with the Aramaic and Latin versions as well as the earliest English versions that the ending words are "God was the logos".

If this is what John actually wrote it takes this argument away when your understanding is that the Logos is Gods visible, personal image. It would then have John plainy saying God himself....the Father, the only true God HIMSELF was that visible image,the Logos.

Not a second person, neither just a thought/plan in Gods mind.

This is it in a nutshell. I was attacked strongly and warned about "word order" making this impossible.

Thats why I am asking about it. If INDEED this is not a possible ending for the verse I will have to quit using it. At this time the rules and constructions of the Greek discussed here are way over my head!

I just see the finished product of an Interlinear which early on Scott said the language is spoken as it was written and that Logos was the last word of the sentence, agreeing with Aramaic, Latin, and German Bible versions.

So obviously if this is wrong I dont want my credibility to be smashed as I assume
(by faith) I will be teaching on John 1:1 for the rest of my life.
I think the plan in God's mind is a week arguement. I prefer to see the Logos in its 1st century Hebraic context of the Memra
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  #62  
Old 05-28-2019, 04:30 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Help With The Greek

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
IMO they are correct to point out that the Logos is/was personal. The difference is to them the personality is a distinct person of God numerically.

The truth of the personality is that it is God himself, the Father in A PERSONAL FORM.

As in Heb. 1:3 The express image of HIS PERSON. Not another person but his OWN.

So yes the Logos is/was PERSONAL.

And yes the Logos IS disctinct from the Father in the sense of mode of being.

Distinct in that "God" is omnipresent eternal Spirit and the Logos is visible and local.

In this understanding yes, the Logos IS personal yet distinct and yet preserves the oneness of God.
For the record, John doesnt introduce Father/Son language until after the Logos becomes human in vs 14
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #63  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:53 PM
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Re: Help With The Greek

True and I do use that point. But, The Trins move to Hebrew 1 and Colossians 1. Then comes the heart of the issue. The Son in both contexts is said to be Creator.

I respond that in both contexts the Son is called the image of the invisible God. Not another distinct God person. The Son was not actually known as the Son until the Logos was made flesh. Evidently Paul saw no harm in writing the "Son" created everything. To him in retrospect the Logos, Son, and image were interchangeable.

I fear many in Oneness have put themselves in a box in this aspect of truth fighting against something Paul plainly wrote.
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  #64  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:55 PM
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Re: Help With The Greek

Quote:
Prax

I think the plan in God's mind is a week arguement. I prefer to see the Logos in its 1st century Hebraic context of the Memra
Yes exactly!
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  #65  
Old 05-28-2019, 07:03 PM
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Re: Help With The Greek

Please examine this article by William Arnold a Oneness teacher on the "no article before Theos" issue. Emphasis on the bolded.

https://www.onenesspentecostal.com/logos.htm



En arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos,
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" (John 1:1).

This passage is foundational to understanding the relationship between Jesus and God. Before we look at places where we see a distinction made, such as in the Upper Room Discourse (ch. 14 – 17), we must first understand what John is saying here. It is no wonder that John (which makes the most distinction of any New Testament writer) puts this at the outset. He is laying a foundation. John says both that the word was with God and that the word was God. In one and the same breath, the word is distinguished from God and yet immediately identified as being God. How is that possible? I believe that the answer to this is the key to understanding other passages in scripture where a distinction is made.

First I would like to point out what John does not say. Notice that John does not say that, "In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with the Father and the Son was also God." Had John been a Trinitarian we would expect him to say something to this effect to be consistent with Trinitarian doctrine. To find a Trinity in his words we are forced to redefine the word "God" in the middle of a verse. John would be saying that the word was with God the Father but that the word was God the Son. But that is not what he said. The same God whom John identifies the word as being with is the one whom he states that the word is (the word was with God and the word was God).

Trinitarians claim that the distinction is justified because the second phrase contains the article before God (ton theon) but that the last phrase does not (theos). My first response would be: Why does the presence of the article demand that this is God the Father? Why not God the Holy Spirit? For some reason, when a Trinitarian reads "God" they first assume it is a reference to God the Father unless they have reason to believe otherwise. Somehow the Father is more "God" than the other two persons. Second, I would simply point out that almost every time the phrase "God the Father" or "God our Father" appears in Scripture, the article is lacking. This includes every one of Paul’s benedictions as well as several other verses (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal. 1:1,3; Eph. 1:2; Eph. 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 2:11; Col. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1,2; 1 Tim. 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; Phm. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:17; 2 John 1:3; Jude 1:1). So there is no justification to claim that the second theos in John 1:1 does not refer to God the Father simply because there is no article. Finally, John was a devout Jew who had no concept of persons in the Godhead. The only God he knew of was God the Father. Therefore, to identify the word as God was to identify him as the Father (See also my article: Colwell's Rule and John 1:1 on this issue).

I have also heard it claimed that the Greek word pros (with) means "in a face to face relationship" in this passage. Now pros can mean "in a face to face relationship," but this would only hold true in our passage if it is first demonstrated that the word is another person than theos (God). If, however, the word does not refer to a person in this phrase then it would still mean "with" but not "in a face to face relationship." That it does not refer to a person can be seen in the parallel account by the same author in 1 John. In a very similar statement, John says "What was from the beginning . . . concerning the Word of Life . . . which was with (pros) the Father and was manifested to us" (1 John1:1,2). God’s life was with him, but not "in a face to face relationship" with him. God’s life is not a separate person from himself and neither is his word.

I believe that the word of God is simply a reference to the expression of God. In Revelation 19:13 (John writing again), Jesus is called "the Word of God." The book of Hebrews tells us that, "God . . . has spoken to us in his Son" (Heb. 1:1,2). Jesus is himself the content of what God has spoken. He is the visible "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3, KJV). "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18, KJV). The word translated "declared" in this last verse is exegeomai, from which we get the word exegete. Jesus has "made known," "explained," "described" or "revealed" God. To use colloquial terminology, he’s the spittin’ image of his daddy. No one can see God, but you can see his glory. Jesus is "the brightness of his glory" (Heb. 1:3).

Trinitarians often use analogies to express their concept of God, such as the three points on a triangle, the three states of water or three interconnected circles. Analogies can be helpful, if they accurately express the reality. However, they can be very damaging if they do not. The only analogy that I am going to use is found in Scripture. Jesus is said to be both the root and a branch (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; Rom. 15:12; Rev. 5:5; especially 22:16). This is beyond our comprehension. You cannot diagram it; you can’t explain it, but this is what Scripture says. Scripture does not state that God is three points of a triangle, but it does state that Jesus is both the root and a branch. This we must affirm whether or not we can explain it. And I believe that this will answer the issue of distinction which we see in the Bible. From the viewpoint of Jesus as root, he is God Almighty and can be called such. From the viewpoint of Jesus as a branch, he can legitimately be distinguished from God. He is both the Creator and part of the creation. How this is possible I do not know, but this is what Scripture affirms.

Attention has also been drawn to the fact that the pronouns which follow are in the masculine. It has been claimed that because of this, the word must be a person. Now when such a claim is made, I must conclude that either the person who said it knows very little about the Greek language or they are not being fully honest with what they are saying. The rules of Greek grammar require that pronouns must agree with the nouns they represent in case, number and gender. Since the word logos (word) is masculine, its pronoun would of necessity be masculine! For example, the word church (ekklesia) is feminine. So the church is called a "she" in the Greek whenever a pronoun is used. No one would claim that this makes the church a person. This can also be seen where John later calls the comforter (parakletos) a "he." Commenting on this, Greek scholar Daniel Wallace makes this observation:

The use of ekeinos [he] here is frequently regarded by [Trinitarian] students of the NT to be an affirmation of the personality of the Spirit. . . . But this is erroneous. In all these Johannine passages, pneuma [spirit] is appositional to a masculine noun. The Gender of ekeinos thus has nothing to do with the natural gender of pneuma. The antecedent of ekeinos, in each case, is parakletos [comforter], not pneuma. . . . Thus, since parakletos is masculine, so is the pronoun. . . . Indeed, it is difficult to find any text in which pneuma is grammatically referred to with the masculine gender.1

Finally, I would also like to state that this is how we are to understand statements of Christ’s preexistence. In the beginning was the logos (word). Whether we want to say the word of God, the expression of God or the glory of God, this is what existed in eternity past, not an eternal second person in the Godhead. Jesus is the visible representation of the one invisible God. It can be said that he was with God and it can be said that he was God, but this does not make God himself multiple persons for the scriptures emphatically teach that God is one.
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  #66  
Old 05-28-2019, 09:13 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Help With The Greek

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I would simply point out that almost every time the phrase "God the Father" or "God our Father" appears in Scripture, the article is lacking. This includes every one of Paul’s benedictions as well as several other verses (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal. 1:1,3; Eph. 1:2; Eph. 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 2:11; Col. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1,2; 1 Tim. 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; Phm. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:17; 2 John 1:3; Jude 1:1).
I wonder what John's normal usage is. I see he lists many examples from Paul's salutations, but I wouldn't think Paul's usage would be a primary place to look to understand John 1.1. I'm short on time so I can't read the whole article carefully, so maybe the author does examine John's usage elsewhere.
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  #67  
Old 05-29-2019, 02:28 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

*This will be a classic drive-by, but, briefly, I do find the word order instructive regarding Oneness inasmuch as it strongly affirms the definitive force - contra the qualitative tag - of “Theos” in 1.1c.

*BUT*, the subject is clearly “ho Logos” as delineated by the articular noun Logos (as already pointed out). See Lane McGauphy’s works on this passage in a journal paper (cannot recall which one off-hand) in cf. w. E. Goetchius’s subsequent modification which argues strongly in favor of the definitive force of “Theos” in 1.1c. Cf., also, Carson, Blomberg, et al.
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  #68  
Old 05-29-2019, 04:17 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

The use of articles and the importance or the lack thereof in theology should be left for those who actually read and write Koine Greek.

I say the same thing about prepositions. They have a range of meanings, but the best way to understand them and how to translate them is to use them when writing and reading Greek.
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  #69  
Old 05-29-2019, 07:54 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I wonder what John's normal usage is. I see he lists many examples from Paul's salutations, but I wouldn't think Paul's usage would be a primary place to look to understand John 1.1. I'm short on time so I can't read the whole article carefully, so maybe the author does examine John's usage elsewhere.
Wouldnt John and Paul have the same doctrine?
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  #70  
Old 05-29-2019, 08:42 AM
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Re: Help With The Greek

The difference is vocabulary, not theology. Both John and Paul had distinct vocabulary.

John's words in Jn. 1:1 are best understood by 1 Jn. 1:1.
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