Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[1ofthechosen]

Sorry posted this in the wrong spot too. Although I already had some dialogue with Michael on it!

Deuteronomy 27:17 "Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen."

[Michael The Disciple]

From that conversation 1of thechosen

During the Hippy Generation of the 50’s and 60’s, beards sprouted on those who rebelled against society. It became their symbol. Many of that culture were draft dodgers and some even moved to Canada. A spirit of rebellion and non-conformity was connected to the beard wearing. New male converts for years have shown visible evidence of their conversion, by shaving off their facial hair when they got into an Apostolic church.

To which I replied,

This is the ridicuous tradition that brought in Preachers war against beards. So the hippies were sinners and wore beards? First off many hippies did not wear beards. Secondly we could ask did other men BESIDES hippies wear a beard in the 60's and 70's?

And yet here is the most HYPOCRITICAL thing about the whole mess. The shave only Preachers say they are keeping people from the world by preaching against beards. They say they have a rebellious spirit (I suppose this means demonic) if they want to wear a beard!

But what about the Preachers nice suits? In our society there are VERY WICKED MEN who are out there wearing suits! Think about it.

Corrupt politicians.
Wall Street kings of greed.
CIA agents who overthrow governments and assasinate people.
Hollywood actors known for fornication and worldliness.

These all have something in common. They all wear suits!

And YET.....the shave only Preachers not only never target these suit wearing sinners but actually follow right along with the stylishness and worldliness! How can we take this line of reasoning about beards seriously from Preachers who wear the same suits as the most worldly of all society wears?

But O yes they are worried about the WORLD sneaking into the Church.

But oh yes dont forget to preach about those evil beards. Someone might be tempted to think the Bible is ok with them!

And in these so called Apostolic Churches it is actually considered evidence of being saved when one SHAVES!

Well judging by the same standard that the beards were worn by some hippies therefore beards are wicked can we not make it a sign of TRUE CONVERSION if a Preacher or Church members takes off their suits?

I mean we "Apostolics" would not want the air of worldliness among us right? And what is more worldly than Hollywood? Wall Street? CIA? Corrupt politicians?

So I guess they really are not very serious about THE WORLD COMING INTO THE CHURCH!

Nope. As long as they can get by with preaching that men who wear beards have a SPIRIT OF REBELLION....they have done their duty.

[1ofthechosen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Corrupt politicians.
Wall Street kings of greed.
CIA agents who overthrow governments and assasinate people.
Hollywood actors known for fornication and worldliness.

These all have something in common. They all wear suits!



Michael, this is a severely dramatic statement. Funny but dramatic. I believe people should be modest In apparel. There is cheap suits you know? I don't own a suit, I just wear button down and slacks. You missed the whole purpose of the quote of Martyn Ballestero. I quoted it for the part where he said: "However, in early Pentecost, especially in the white churches, there was a marked absence of beards. The beards seemed to disappear." And the other part where he said: "The Pentecostal scene was one of clean-shaven men for over 50 years."

That's what I've been saying, if it's been like that for 50 years who am I to come in, and tell them to change for me? What they are saying isn't immoral, their not telling you to sacrifice your children!!! I understand you feel that people are saying you have a demon because you have facial hair. Or that your rebellious because of it. I don't believe someone is rebellious for having it. But, I do believe if you go to a church that preaches against it, and you are going around to other people trying to get them to rebel against it that is rebellious. There's a root in a lot of this, that's the spirit of Absalom at work. If you can't take it, go to a church where it is accepted to have a facial hair. We all need to have a man of God though, because without that, who's going to call you out on your stuff?
__________________

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Corrupt politicians.
Wall Street kings of greed.
CIA agents who overthrow governments and assasinate people.
Hollywood actors known for fornication and worldliness.

These all have something in common. They all wear suits!



Michael, this is a severely dramatic statement. Funny but dramatic. I believe people should be modest In apparel. There is cheap suits you know? I don't own a suit, I just wear button down and slacks. You missed the whole purpose of the quote of Martyn Ballestero. I quoted it for the part where he said: "However, in early Pentecost, especially in the white churches, there was a marked absence of beards. The beards seemed to disappear." And the other part where he said: "The Pentecostal scene was one of clean-shaven men for over 50 years."

That's what I've been saying, if it's been like that for 50 years who am I to come in, and tell them to change for me? What they are saying isn't immoral, their not telling you to sacrifice your children!!! I understand you feel that people are saying you have a demon because you have facial hair. Or that your rebellious because of it. I don't believe someone is rebellious for having it. But, I do believe if you go to a church that preaches against it, and you are going around to other people trying to get them to rebel against it that is rebellious. There's a root in a lot of this, that's the spirit of Absalom at work. If you can't take it, go to a church where it is accepted to have a facial hair. We all need to have a man of God though, because without that, who's going to call you out on your stuff?
__________________

It hasn't been like that in all Pentecostal churches.

The ones it was like that was because that is what they forced on the membership. But in the UPC it wasn't a written requirement.

In the bible it's not even mentioned.

So it's a leftover relic of a previous age and is a doctrine of man.

Stop forcing it on others

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It hasn't been like that in all Pentecostal churches.

The ones it was like that was because that is what they forced on the membership. But in the UPC it wasn't a written requirement.

In the bible it's not even mentioned.

So it's a leftover relic of a previous age and is a doctrine of man.

Stop forcing it on others

No one is forcing it on anyone. People are just acting like life or death is in the power of the beard. I'm not for it or against it, it goes down to what you GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD says! Those words in all caps are important because everyone of them, is of equal importance.

All I'm saying is follow God's government over you. A man of God who won't compromise, is a plus because he's not going to compromise to cause a revival. He will not bend or break, anyone that will, you don't need a Pastor like that in the first place. The spirit of compromise is never satisfied. The topic of this subject had little to do with beards, but people made it about just that. Why, I don't know. Some not all of them, would be happy to see other things go too. Keep cutting stuff short, and before long we are following the light doctrine. And saying all baptisms are the same. And we get to the point where we are committing our life to Christ and signing a card! The UPC keeps platform standards though do they not?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

No one is forcing it on anyone. People are just acting like life or death is in the power of the beard. I'm not for it or against it, it goes down to what you GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD says! Those words in all caps are important because everyone of them, is of equal importance.

All I'm saying is follow God's government over you. A man of God who won't compromise, is a plus because he's not going to compromise to cause a revival. He will not bend or break, anyone that will, you don't need a Pastor like that in the first place. The spirit of compromise is never satisfied. The topic of this subject had little to do with beards, but people made it about just that. Why, I don't know. Some not all of them, would be happy to see other things go too. Keep cutting stuff short, and before long we are following the light doctrine. And saying all baptisms are the same. And we get to the point where we are committing our life to Christ and signing a card! The UPC keeps platform standards though do they not?

I'm curious about something... you had said,

I'm not for it or against it, it goes down to what you GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD says! Those words in all caps are important because everyone of them, is of equal importance.

Does the UPCI have an official organizational policy on beards? I ask this because though you make mention that it depends on what one's "God appointed man of God says", if there is an official position, many men of God aren't even at liberty to permit beards even if they wished to. And those who do, and fly under the UPCI organization, are clearly out of step with their organization's position on beards.

I'm just trying to see how much leeway a man of God has in the UPCI.

[Tithesmeister]

[QUOTE=1ofthechosen;1526881]No one is forcing it on anyone. People are just acting like life or death is in the power of the beard. I'm not for it or against it, it goes down to what you GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD says! Those words in all caps are important because everyone of them, is of equal importance.


Could you please provide a scripture for a GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD in the New Testament church. I am referring to a single man that is usually called a pastor that is ordained to be the single solitary leader of a church. The truth of the matter is that the word pastor is only mentioned once in the New Testament and there is not a clear description of the duties of the pastor. He is definitely part of the five-fold ministry but there is no example of him ever being exalted in any way above the other four.

So, the question seems to be "What is the God ordained government of the church?". What does it look like? Who does it include?

The apostles never referred to themselves as pastors. There is no example of Paul writing a letter to the pastor of a church. There is no example of a pastor setting standards for the church. There is no example in the New Testament church of a pastor being ordained.

So where did we come up with this model? We made it up! We like it pretty well. We think it is a good system. We are pretty sure that God approves of it. Most people even think it was Jesus' model for His church.

We claim to be apostolic. So what did the apostles do? Did they ordain apostles at every church? No they ordained elders at every church!

Acts.14
[23] And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

That was the Apostle Paul. What did the Apostle Peter have to say? It was consistent with Paul's opinion.

1Pet.5
[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Here Peter is exhorting the elders which are among you. Notice that they are among and NOT lording over you. Also notice that elders is plural, NOT singular. Here are the next two verses.

[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Where does the Bible say that a pastor is ordained to lead a church? It doesn't! We did that! It may be a left over tradition from our RCC roots, but it did not come from the Bible.

When the Apostle Paul needed to speak with the leadership of the church of Ephesus he called for the pastor, right? Wrong! He sent for the elders!

Acts.20
[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church

It had been prophesied that Paul was going to be imprisoned. He was sure that he would never see them again. He had some final instruction for them on how to conduct themselves as overseers of the church. He did not have time to go to Ephesus. So he sent for the elders to meet him at Miletus. He never mentions a pastor. It is also significant that Paul never singles out any man or mentions any of the elders by name. It is as if they are one body and none of them is exalted above another.

Imagine that! And imagination is the only way that you are likely to see this form of government in today's church. You will have to use your imagination, because it doesn't exist, except possibly in some of the smaller "home church" models.

We often refer to churchs using the name of the pastor, in possessive form. It is referred to as Brother so and so's church. Sister Alvear referred to sitting under Brother Bryan Taylor all of her life. Some go to Brother Booker's church, other's to Brother Mangun's, some go to Brother Steve Epley's church. The apostles NEVER referred to a church as belonging to any human being. The letters are written to the church at Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, etc.. One was written to the Hebrews. They never wrote to the church of the Apostle James, or the Apostle Peter's church. We changed all that.

But the pastor is the head of the local church, right? Well, let me think about that. Is that an apostolic precept? If so, then this scripture would be in error.

1Cor.11
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

This seems to be pretty definite. And it says that the head of every man, that would include me, is Christ. Paul (the Apostle Paul) did not claim to be the head of any church. Are we really apostolic?

He (Jesus) is the vine, we are the branches. Oh, let me just quote it.

John.15
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We have come up with a system whereby we have branches abiding in branches, rather than abiding in He who is the vine. Instead of abiding in Jesus, we are instructed to abide in Pastor ___________(fill in the blank).

We have decided that the system that we created was ordained by God. To say otherwise is deemed heresy or rebellion. So the question posed in the OP is . . .

"Should we teach others to rebel against standards?"

I say that the system of a single authoritative leader is a rebellion in itself to the word of God. So should we listen to man rather than God?

Perhaps that should be the question.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It hasn't been like that in all Pentecostal churches.

The ones it was like that was because that is what they forced on the membership. But in the UPC it wasn't a written requirement.

In the bible it's not even mentioned.

So it's a leftover relic of a previous age and is a doctrine of man.

Stop forcing it on others

agreed.

[RachelRose]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

From that conversation 1of thechosen



To which I replied,

This is the ridicuous tradition that brought in Preachers war against beards. So the hippies were sinners and wore beards? First off many hippies did not wear beards. Secondly we could ask did other men BESIDES hippies wear a beard in the 60's and 70's?

And yet here is the most HYPOCRITICAL thing about the whole mess. The shave only Preachers say they are keeping people from the world by preaching against beards. They say they have a rebellious spirit (I suppose this means demonic) if they want to wear a beard!

But what about the Preachers nice suits? In our society there are VERY WICKED MEN who are out there wearing suits! Think about it.

Corrupt politicians.
Wall Street kings of greed.
CIA agents who overthrow governments and assasinate people.
Hollywood actors known for fornication and worldliness.

These all have something in common. They all wear suits!

And YET.....the shave only Preachers not only never target these suit wearing sinners but actually follow right along with the stylishness and worldliness! How can we take this line of reasoning about beards seriously from Preachers who wear the same suits as the most worldly of all society wears?

But O yes they are worried about the WORLD sneaking into the Church.

But oh yes dont forget to preach about those evil beards. Someone might be tempted to think the Bible is ok with them!

And in these so called Apostolic Churches it is actually considered evidence of being saved when one SHAVES!

Well judging by the same standard that the beards were worn by some hippies therefore beards are wicked can we not make it a sign of TRUE CONVERSION if a Preacher or Church members takes off their suits?

I mean we "Apostolics" would not want the air of worldliness among us right? And what is more worldly than Hollywood? Wall Street? CIA? Corrupt politicians?

So I guess they really are not very serious about THE WORLD COMING INTO THE CHURCH!

Nope. As long as they can get by with preaching that men who wear beards have a SPIRIT OF REBELLION....they have done their duty.

Vain traditions are what chases people away from the church.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by RachelRose

Vain traditions are what chases people away from the church.

We know that this guy loved breaking traditions.

He sure didn't want to chase any men away from his church.