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  #21  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:44 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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Originally Posted by Romans163031 View Post
N David I'm assuming you have read it?
I read the preview on Amazon and a few entries on her blog. That was enough.
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  #22  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:31 AM
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Holy Roller Holy Roller is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

Most people that toss around the word legalism (i.e. legalist, legalistic, etc.) haven't the slightest idea as to what it means.

Most of the ones that write off a particular church, Christian individual, or beliefs as legalistic, are generally saying that they don't want to live a life as set aside as the one they're writing off. They don't mind going to church, being baptized in Jesus' name, or even speaking in tongues, but that conviction and being set aside stuff just hits them sideways.

They can't jive with that.

How do I draw this conclusion? Well, if you've followed any of my previous posts, you'll remember that I once struggled with such issues on separation, modesty, and things I saw as legalistic because I didn't have a love for what was right in my heart.

You see, when people view Biblical principles as legalistic, that's their first issue. When they don't have the love for what is Truth in their hearts, they naturally feel bound and strive to find someone that tells them "they ain't gotta live like that".

I certainly did that.

But it slapped me in the face one day that I was going the opposite direction that what I know God had told me was right. I was deliberately trying to convince my newly converted holiness mind that what my home church was calling holiness was really legalism, and therefore unnecessary.

Boy, am I thankful the Lord had mercy on me and drew me back in. I can't say every "I" and "T" is dotted and crossed like it's suppose to be, but I can say I don't have any intention on going the opposite direction.

No compromises. No white-washing.

Live it straight.
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  #23  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:57 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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But it slapped me in the face one day that I was going the opposite direction that what I know God had told me was right. I was deliberately trying to convince my newly converted holiness mind that what my home church was calling holiness was really legalism, and therefore unnecessary.
So, you no longer attend your home church?

You are holiness homeless?
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ALL pastors are hindrances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.~Steve Epley.
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  #24  
Old 08-19-2019, 11:10 AM
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diakonos diakonos is online now
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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You are holiness homeless?


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  #25  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
So, you no longer attend your home church?

You are holiness homeless?
No, I went back to my home church full time. I struggled with such issues, but returned to what I knew was right.
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  #26  
Old 08-19-2019, 02:16 PM
derAlte derAlte is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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Originally Posted by Holy Roller View Post
Most people that toss around the word legalism (i.e. legalist, legalistic, etc.) haven't the slightest idea as to what it means.

Most of the ones that write off a particular church, Christian individual, or beliefs as legalistic, are generally saying that they don't want to live a life as set aside as the one they're writing off. They don't mind going to church, being baptized in Jesus' name, or even speaking in tongues, but that conviction and being set aside stuff just hits them sideways.

They can't jive with that.

How do I draw this conclusion? Well, if you've followed any of my previous posts, you'll remember that I once struggled with such issues on separation, modesty, and things I saw as legalistic because I didn't have a love for what was right in my heart.

You see, when people view Biblical principles as legalistic, that's their first issue. When they don't have the love for what is Truth in their hearts, they naturally feel bound and strive to find someone that tells them "they ain't gotta live like that".

I certainly did that.

But it slapped me in the face one day that I was going the opposite direction that what I know God had told me was right. I was deliberately trying to convince my newly converted holiness mind that what my home church was calling holiness was really legalism, and therefore unnecessary.

Boy, am I thankful the Lord had mercy on me and drew me back in. I can't say every "I" and "T" is dotted and crossed like it's suppose to be, but I can say I don't have any intention on going the opposite direction.

No compromises. No white-washing.

Live it straight.
I appreciate your sentiments here. For some, it seems the Biblical lifestyle of separation from the world is interpreted as a series of "laws" that must be kept to remain a part of the club. I've seen folks with mean, judgmental attitudes think they were OK as long as they looked ultra-conservative in their dress code. They've missed the point.

You are really onto something when you mention love for the Truth. A truly separated lifestyle is one that is motivated by love for and a desire to please the Lord Jesus Christ who is the personification of Truth. Folks in love with Jesus love His Word and take their lifestyle cues from the Spirit-inspired Bible.

So many people are driven by their feelings. Some make snap judgments concerning the various stands some Christians have taken and don't take the time to carefully and prayerfully examine the "why" of the stands people take.

When hundreds of thousands of Apostolic people agree to take a stand on a certain subject, it seems a manifestation of hubris to not take a close and reasoned look at why they did it. Some folks take stands because of tradition, or to stay in the club, or out of fear of their pastor. Some say, "my church teaches this." To me, all these reasons are just not good enough. If one separates themselves from the world for any other reason than being madly and hopelessly in love with Jesus Christ, they are missing the point.

Jesus said, "Woe unto the world because offenses must come." He was so right...if you haven't had opportunity to be offended yet, it is guaranteed to come. I just hate it when I see folks throw away their relationship with Jesus Christ because they see Christians acting awful. Seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me. For some its impossible to separate the Lord Jesus from Christians who are acting ugly. I guess it's human nature. It's still sad.
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2019, 07:48 AM
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Holy Roller Holy Roller is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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Originally Posted by derAlte View Post
I appreciate your sentiments here. For some, it seems the Biblical lifestyle of separation from the world is interpreted as a series of "laws" that must be kept to remain a part of the club. I've seen folks with mean, judgmental attitudes think they were OK as long as they looked ultra-conservative in their dress code. They've missed the point.

You are really onto something when you mention love for the Truth. A truly separated lifestyle is one that is motivated by love for and a desire to please the Lord Jesus Christ who is the personification of Truth. Folks in love with Jesus love His Word and take their lifestyle cues from the Spirit-inspired Bible.

So many people are driven by their feelings. Some make snap judgments concerning the various stands some Christians have taken and don't take the time to carefully and prayerfully examine the "why" of the stands people take.

When hundreds of thousands of Apostolic people agree to take a stand on a certain subject, it seems a manifestation of hubris to not take a close and reasoned look at why they did it. Some folks take stands because of tradition, or to stay in the club, or out of fear of their pastor. Some say, "my church teaches this." To me, all these reasons are just not good enough. If one separates themselves from the world for any other reason than being madly and hopelessly in love with Jesus Christ, they are missing the point.

Jesus said, "Woe unto the world because offenses must come." He was so right...if you haven't had opportunity to be offended yet, it is guaranteed to come. I just hate it when I see folks throw away their relationship with Jesus Christ because they see Christians acting awful. Seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to me. For some its impossible to separate the Lord Jesus from Christians who are acting ugly. I guess it's human nature. It's still sad.
I have met several Apostolic people that have an attitude about them that they're simply holier than the rest because of their adherence to a strict outwardly conservative standard.

The churches in my area have done one of two things: 1) They've lowered their standards, stayed friendly and mostly welcoming, but are pressing toward the "you don't have to live like that" mentality; or 2) They've kept their standards, but have become consumed with a holier than thou attitude that comes across rather abrasive to sinners, backsliders, and other Christians.

I spent too much time with those loosening their standards, and in turn, got hurt when I visited the churches that had become consumed by pride. Honestly, I don't think either attitude makes Jesus happy. He doesn't want us widening the way the Word calls narrow to Heaven, but He also doesn't want us basing our faith entirely on standards, especially those man-made, and therefore shunning people in the process.

There's a balance. Holiness is an inward and outward thing. If holiness consumes you inwardly, then it can't help but to show on the outside. If the outside starts slipping, then something went wrong on the inside first. The two go hand-in-hand, coexisting with one another. I don't know if I believe if it's genuinely possible to have one without the other.
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Last edited by Holy Roller; 08-20-2019 at 07:56 AM.
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:49 AM
derAlte derAlte is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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Originally Posted by Holy Roller View Post
I have met several Apostolic people that have an attitude about them that they're simply holier than the rest because of their adherence to a strict outwardly conservative standard.

The churches in my area have done one of two things: 1) They've lowered their standards, stayed friendly and mostly welcoming, but are pressing toward the "you don't have to live like that" mentality; or 2) They've kept their standards, but have become consumed with a holier than thou attitude that comes across rather abrasive to sinners, backsliders, and other Christians.

I spent too much time with those loosening their standards, and in turn, got hurt when I visited the churches that had become consumed by pride. Honestly, I don't think either attitude makes Jesus happy. He doesn't want us widening the way the Word calls narrow to Heaven, but He also doesn't want us basing our faith entirely on standards, especially those man-made, and therefore shunning people in the process.

There's a balance. Holiness is an inward and outward thing. If holiness consumes you inwardly, then it can't help but to show on the outside. If the outside starts slipping, then something went wrong on the inside first. The two go hand-in-hand, coexisting with one another. I don't know if I believe if it's genuinely possible to have one without the other.
Well said! I couldn't agree more!
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:08 AM
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diakonos diakonos is online now
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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If holiness consumes you inwardly, then it can't help but to show on the outside. If the outside starts slipping, then something went wrong on the inside first.
which standards have to be kept to be saved?
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  #30  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:15 AM
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Holy Roller Holy Roller is offline
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Re: From legalism to grace. Anyone read this book

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Originally Posted by derAlte View Post
Well said! I couldn't agree more!
Thanks.

I've been a spiritual rollercoaster before in concerning certain expectations on holiness. When I young in the faith, I remember praying and asking God what was right and what I needed to adhere to as Biblical fact.

And I found that changing once I started hanging around my Mother's church too much. Their exceptional people, but have lowered their standards considerably. It's almost as if their standards are so low now that they might as well not have any whatsoever. The Mother of the Church, that started it back in 1963, passed back in 2014. It had already starting going down hill before her death because her health was waning, and she wasn't able to pastor as she had done before. Her son-in-law and youngest daughter took over as pastors, and it's been a continuing downward spiral ever since.

Like I said, they love people. They help them financially, pray for them, with them, encourage them to be involved in and regularly attend church, but correcting them in center areas of their life, they don't do. There's almost no outward attire standard; makeup, jewelry, women wearing pants, cut hair, pierced ears, cloud the congregation, and has found its way into the pulpit. The pastors themselves have backslidden in their appearance.

This confused me. The Spirit still moves in their services, so how could their decision to "let go of tradition" (as they seem to call it) necessarily be bad? I finally came back to realization that the Lord was simply having mercy on them, hoping they'd come back to Him solely.
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