Autism or possession

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

wow....UnHoly Animorphs Batman! ��

He was biking in a forest. A huge owl hovered in front of him and spread its wings. He felt fire and the anointing when he rebuked the witch/owl in the name of Jesus.

Really, you’d think that people would get rid of their superstitions and folklore when they convert, but…

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by diakonos

He was biking in a forest. A huge owl hovered in front of him and spread its wings. He felt fire and the anointing when he rebuked the witch/owl in the name of Jesus.

Really, you’d think that people would get rid of their superstitions and folklore when they convert, but…

I would have been like,"Mr.Owl, how many licks DOES it take to get to the center of a ToosieRoll ToosiePop?"



and then when he ate my candy we'd have issues...may involve some rebuking but more than likely a BB gun. 😅

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I would have been like,"Mr.Owl, how many licks DOES it take to get to the center of a ToosieRoll ToosiePop?"



and then when he ate my candy we'd have issues...may involve some rebuking but more than likely a BB gun. 😅

"A group of engineering students from Purdue University reported that its licking machine, modeled after a human tongue, took an average of 364 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. Twenty of the group's volunteers assumed the licking challenge-unassisted by machinery-and averaged 252 licks each to the center."

Now people are going to accuse me of not believing in demon owls in Louisiana that eat candy.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

"A group of engineering students from Purdue University reported that its licking machine, modeled after a human tongue, took an average of 364 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. Twenty of the group's volunteers assumed the licking challenge-unassisted by machinery-and averaged 252 licks each to the center."

Now people are going to accuse me of not believing in demon owls in Louisiana that eat candy.

That evil sugar addicted fluffy flyin velociraptor with big yellow eyes under them big bushy Murril Ewing*R.I.P* eyebrows gonna be lookin for you when you come through here bro. Better get the oil Cora! 🤣

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Autism is a neurological condition in the brain and effects one's mental state. The other is a structural condition of the body that has no bearing on one's mental state.

And? What difference does that make? Do you think God can't correct mental defects like he can the physical? Do you think those with Down's Syndrome are just "another way of being human", and they aren't living with an infirmity in their lives? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Yes, that would be the right place to begin.

Why? Seriously, that's not rhetorical, I'm curious to know why that should be our default. Extrapolate on what you mean and show me the error of my thinking.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Nonsense, and you know it. I'm surprised at you.

Maybe it is nonsense, but it does serve a point. The word means what it means. Let's look at the dictionary definitions:

2) the disadvantage or advantage itself.
3) any disadvantage that makes success more difficult:
4) a physical or mental disability making participation in certain of the usual activities of daily living more difficult.
5) to place at a disadvantage; disable or burden:

Sounds like the word is fitting to me. If - God forbid - I lost an arm or a leg tomorrow, that would definitely qualify as a handicap.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Do you even know what the ADA is and what its history is and how much it drastically improved the lives of millions of Americans with disabilities?

And as far as not using the word "handicap" to describe people with disabilities:

1.) Do you call blacks negros or colored? Do you call Mexicans wetbacks or spics? If not, why not? Did you thoroughly buy into the whole politically correct doctrine?

2.) There is great utility in being circumspect with our speech as not to offend various people if we intend to win them to the Lord. Paul exercised himself to always have a conscience devoid of offense toward God and men. Someone who loves souls might want to seriously consider that. It actually helps, A LOT.

I'm not talking about throwing it in their faces, for crying out loud. You seem to think very poorly of me and some others, by insinuating we're being abusive to others because we don't agree with your opinion. I'm just talking about calling a spade a spade.

And what about you using the word 'black'? Isn't it supposed to be 'african-american' now? Oh wait, maybe now it's 'people of color'. The words change so often, and old words are constantly being rebranded as "hateful", that it's impossible to keep up with them.

Unless you can empirically prove to me that the word is hateful, I don't see any reason not to use it in its proper context.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

And, you don't have to treat a child like a nutcase or make big scenes. You just have to inadvertently cause the child to internalize a label that will for the rest of their lives make them think something is inherently wrong with them. You pray for this child. You lay hands on him. Because you're good pastor and some decent parents ask you to. If nothing satisfactorily happens in that child's life and you keep that up, eventually the child is going to grow older and remember how mom and dad always brought him up to the altar for the pastor to pray for him because he's autistic, and he remembers the conversations he overhears about maybe because he's demonized, the ones you and mom and dad didn't think he could hear, and etc. And maybe one day he's hanging from a rope around his neck.

The same could be said of praying for a physical infirmity. What if God doesn't heal them, either because of their unbelief or because God has another plan for them? Should we then not still pray?

And hanging from a rope? Really? Are you speaking from experience, or are you just blowing smoke?

[JoeBandy]

Geez. No wonder I have stayed away from this forum ...

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Geez. No wonder I have stayed away from this forum ...

And yet, here you are.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jito463

And yet, here you are.

[votivesoul]

I thought it best to let this thread rest for a bit before responding, since, at least as it seems to me, things were getting perhaps a little too personal, and emotions and tensions were high. But I do not think that the conversation should be over, at least not yet, so I am writing all of this to say, that I intend to pick up where things left off, and at least, say my piece, even if no one else responds.

Good Samaritan,

Instead of bullet pointing, quid pro quo style, as we have been doing, I want to break from that formula, and just point out something that I sincerely hope you will take to heart.

You mentioned how you felt like you were being made to feel stupid. I asked you about it, and you responded as follows:

Let’s just say page one, I am called a nimcompoop. You have followed that line of reasoning. Instead of responding to my initial post by answering with I don’t think so and why, you asked me question why would I think that. I don’t mind opposing views, but yes it has sounded condemning because I wondered what if on this subject. Amanah just said that she prays that none autistic darkens our door. How would you take that.

You then shared something personal from your own life, here:

Wow, you want to put a lot on someone. I have never spoken in front of this child even of his autism. My wife brought it up innocently(she meant no harm) of which I immediately turned the subject. Lots of people hang from ropes. Why do you think people do that? Do you think other people make them commit suicide? Or do you believe there are spiritual voices that press people to do that. My first cousin and childhood best friend OverDosed (presumably intentionally) and I was the only one they knew or wanted to do the memorial. Trust me, I am familiar with pain. My mom gave me up when I was 2 and I don’t know who my dad is. Trust me I have familiar with suicidal thoughts, but God came into my life. One of my mom’s X’s came up and told me recently that we thought you where retarded when you where a kid, but I am proud of you. I didn’t really take that as compliment.

More than anything, the thing I am trying to get across, and please tell me if the message was received (because it seems like it has not been), is that we have to be super careful about the kinds of things we communicate about others, especially people with autism.

Look what has transpired in this thread. One member called you a "nincompoop" and you conflated his response to you with mine, and assumed my initial question was a condemnation against you (which is wasn't). You confused my responses with Evangelist Benincasa's, towards Nicodemus' posts about the missionary and various OTC meds.

I am thinking that, because of what you share above, you have, perhaps unconsciously, internalized a harmful view of yourself that then gets triggered when you feel like people are treating you as if you are stupid.

Your mom and one of her exes thought you were mentally retarded. Do you suppose they treated you that way? Do you suppose you ever picked up on that treatment, even subconsciously, especially if it wasn't overt? Maybe you heard comments that you can't quite remember now, but that you know were about you, growing up?

I admit, I am only speculating, and being somewhat rhetorical. You don't have to answer anything.

But for the sake of argument, let's just say that some of what I just wrote above is true. Do you see how damaging even the slightest hint from parents and family members and other adults in one's life can seriously psychologically injure a child?

So, put yourself in the shoes of an autistic. Try to understand how it would feel if you knew that people around you think you're broken, damaged, afflicted, possessed.

It might feel very much like how you felt when your mom's ex told you they thought you were retarded. It might feel how you felt when seguirdojesus called you a nincompoop. It might feel how you felt when I challenged your assumptions. Because you became seriously triggered, defensive, and I would dare say, irrational.

For the autistic, such things not only just hurt emotionally, they can bring about an endless torment of feelings that they may never be free of. Autistics can and often are, hyper-focused and hyper-fixated. Suicide rates among autistics are 3X higher than that of their non-autistic peers:

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...utistic-people

2021 World's Strongest Man Tom Stoltman, a man with autism, was once told by a teacher in high school that there are no certainties in life and that thought alone drove him to suicidal ideation. You can go to youtube and look him up and hear it for yourself.

So, yes, I realize what I wrote is a lot to put on you, or anyone. But please understand why I wrote what I wrote to you. You are so busy looking at this through your own eyes, that you fail to see how all this could look through the eyes of the autistic.

I am glad that you want to help and reach out to and be a healer for those autistics in your life. But the healer must at all times follow this creed:

First, do no harm.

And, at least by this thread, it very much seems that the approach you are taking is an approach that could very well end up violating that creed.

Finally, this:

From experience, I find this to be true. People choose to not forgive, people choose to be angry, etc…people who turn their back on God that choice is totally on them. If people could make you backslide how could God judge you for it? No matter what anyone does to me, the response is on me.

Please go back and reread what you wrote. You wrote that if KIDS become bitter and resentful and backslide, they have no one to blame for themselves. You weren't talking adults who made free choices to choose unforgiveness and anger. Kids don't have the luxury. If mom or dad or someone else is abusing them and ruining their life, and that ruination turns toward unbelief and anger and pain and hatred and self-loathing and you name it, did that child really have a choice?

So, yes, once a person is an adult, they are accountable for all their decisions, but you didn't say adult. You said kids. That one's on you, brother.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took you to say that praying for autistic chidren to be healed or delivered was wrong. When, I replied that the parents approached me I understood you infer that parents who do that are wrong.

You didn't misunderstand. Autistics do not need to be healed or delivered from their autism. They need to be healed and delivered from trauma, psychological and physical. There is a difference. So, if an autistic repents and receives the Holy Spirit and remission of sins, they do not stop being neuro-divergent. You may see marked improvements in behavior and ability and etc., but that is a result of the spiritual healing that comes with the atonement, from the many ways that autistic children suffer (even when it's unintentional) at the hands of various people, from their parents and family, from their schools, their medical professionals, and their clergy.

Sad

It is sad, and I hope you understand better where I am coming from. If you do not take away anything else from this post or my comments in the entirety of this thread, please consider the possibility that I am not just speaking from some theoretical position of study, but from many lived experiences.

Take care, brother, and I hope everything works out for you.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Jito463

And? What difference does that make? Do you think God can't correct mental defects like he can the physical? Do you think those with Down's Syndrome are just "another way of being human", and they aren't living with an infirmity in their lives? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here.

Brother, if I break my leg, that is a physical injury that can be healed through medical intervention. Neurological disorders are not the same. They cannot simply be healed. That is the apples to oranges. As for the rest, God can do as He pleases, and yes, having Down's Syndrome is just another way of being human. People with Down's Syndrome are created by God in the womb with an extra chromosome. So, where do you suppose that extra chromosome came from?

Why? Seriously, that's not rhetorical, I'm curious to know why that should be our default. Extrapolate on what you mean and show me the error of my thinking.

If you begin with an a priori assumption that an autistic is a damaged in need of healing, not otherwise just another way of being human, person created in the image and likeness of God, all you will ever do is pray and pray and pray for God to do something to make him or her normal, and while you fixate on that, you miss the life being lived right in front of you. It's just another way of othering someone for being different.

We're not talking life choices here, right? We are talking about people who had no choice in their autism. So, yes, begin from the place I recommended, so as to, as I told Good Samaritan, First, Do No Harm. Coming at it from any other angle is going to cause harm. So, unless and until God Himself speaks forthrightly and proves to you that the autistic is in need of healing and deliverance, don't go about assuming it is so.

Maybe it is nonsense, but it does serve a point. The word means what it means. Let's look at the dictionary definitions...

Nonsense never serves a point except to continue to perpetuate its own foolishness. And just because you've quoted a dictionary, doesn't mean people with disabilities will go along with those definitions. And don't you suppose they have a say in the matter in regards to how they themselves are defined?

Sounds like the word is fitting to me. If - God forbid - I lost an arm or a leg tomorrow, that would definitely qualify as a handicap.

Everyone is, as you say, handicapped to some extent or other. We all have advantages and disadvantages, one person to the next. But the person in a wheelchair is someone more deserving of being compared to a beggar in need of alms because of their wheelchair?

The best thing you could personally do is go and spend some time with people who were born with a disability and ask them yourself how they feel about the term "handicap".

I'm not talking about throwing it in their faces, for crying out loud. You seem to think very poorly of me and some others, by insinuating we're being abusive to others because we don't agree with your opinion. I'm just talking about calling a spade a spade.

I don't really know you at all, as we've barely interacted here, so I don't think one thing or the other about you, poorly or otherwise. In fact, I formulate very few opinions about anyone with whom I interact online since, some words on a screen do not, and cannot adequately sum up the totality of the person behind the text.

Be that as it may, I do not think you are being abusive to anyone because you don't agree with my opinion. I think you are being abusive because I've spent years with people with disabilities and I know how they perceive people like yourself who insist on calling them handicapped.

Instead of arguing with me about it, however, why not take a personal inventory and confront your own prejudices toward people who, because of a disability, are different from you.

And what about you using the word 'black'? Isn't it supposed to be 'african-american' now? Oh wait, maybe now it's 'people of color'. The words change so often, and old words are constantly being rebranded as "hateful", that it's impossible to keep up with them.

You are only proving your ignorance here. If you want to know how someone of any race or ethnicity would like to be addressed, ask him or her, and let each individual case call for its own terminology. Notwithstanding, you'd be hard-pressed to find a black person comfortable with being called a negro or being called colored.

Unless you can empirically prove to me that the word is hateful, I don't see any reason not to use it in its proper context.

Ridiculous. No word is ever inherently hateful. Words become hateful when used under certain motivations and when they cause harm. People with disabilities are harmed when described as handicapped. It causes them to question the motivations of people who continue to do so after they have been asked not to. That is the proper context.

The same could be said of praying for a physical infirmity. What if God doesn't heal them, either because of their unbelief or because God has another plan for them? Should we then not still pray?

The only prayers God answers are those which are asked according to His will. You should get the mind of Christ and know His will before launching into such prayers, or risk a negative outcome.

And hanging from a rope? Really? Are you speaking from experience, or are you just blowing smoke?

I will answer this question, but first, answer mine:

Do you have any real skin in the game, or are you just taking potshots from the stands?