You have some points here, but I believe that your points have been built on the wrong foundation. If you changed the foundation you would change your perseption:
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Originally Posted by ChristopherHall
However, as it was in the days of Abraham, tithing isn't a command as it was under the Law.
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First of all the thought that tithing is under the law is wrong because it preceded the law. People try and make the point that Abraham only tithed once. That cannot be proved. You can only assume that from the one instance recorded. Consider Jacob after the encounter referred to as Jacobs ladder:
Gen 28:21-22
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me
I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Where did he come up with this unless his father Abraham had shared these truths with him? What about Cain and Abel who were taking from their increase to come and present to God? Where did they come up with the idea. The law has nothing to do with the tithe except to explain fully how it worked.
[/QUOTE]The Law abiding Pharisees would force you into starvation if it came down to tithing or supporting your family with a thin and insufficient harvest.[/QUOTE]
People keep trying to make the point that the Pharisees in Jesus time were still under the law. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. It is a mute point if the tithe is not under the law, which is very clear that it is not as just explained above.
Your point is valid. The
Pharisees would force a person into starvation, but where in the scriptures do we find the Pharisees an example of anything that we should be?
It wasn't the tithe that was the problem it was the Pharisees that was the problem. It's the same thing as the teaching that TV is a sin. TV is neither good nor evil, it's a tool. It can be used for good or for evil. Therefore, it's the person who control it is under that determines its validity.
Just because someone abused people in offerings doesn't mean the system is flawed, it only means the person was flawed.
I had a Pastor one time who was keeping a gal in Los Angeles outside his marriage. Does that make Pastor's bad? No, it only made that Pastor bad.
There are preachers that have abused the money of the church does that make giving money wrong, no it only makes those preachers wrong.
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Similarly under the New Covenant tithing is a voluntary act, as Paul put it our offerings (including the choice to tithe) is as one has purposed in his or her heart.
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Can you give any scripture that indicates that ANYTHING is voluntary in the Word of God?
Can you give any scripture that Paul talking about offerings included the tithe in what he was saying?
The answer is no, you have inserted it as an assumption.
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Today a Pastor can offer “mercy” to a struggling family by admonishing them to care for their situation rather than demand they, “Go broke for the kingdom bless Gawd.”
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Mercy is not a violation of God's command and the tithe does not make one go broke. If your foundation was in faith on what God has said you would see this as the opportunity to change your circumstance.
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I was a devout tither and giver for 12 years. I was faithful in my giving. It got to the point where our finances took a severe downturn.
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This is an excellent point. The best one that you have made and I think a lot of "faithful tithers" would say AMEN! to it.
I have seen this a number of times. Tithing is not giving 10% even though the tithe is 10%. Putting $100 in the offering bucket every time you make $1,000 doesn't make a person a tither just as someone who throws $10 in the bucket constitutes an offering.
Tithes and offerings are not about money they are about honor. There is a way to tithe, there is a faith that is to be released in the tithe and the tithe is not the end all of walking in the blessings of God, but the act of giving is about honor:
Mal 1:5-8
5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say,
The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.
6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father,
where is mine honour? and if I be a master,
where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7
Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
8 And if
ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if y
e offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Stop and think for a moment at offering time. How many people put in the offering from what is left over of their budget? What they give God is an afterthought.
How many people are giving the same amount of offerings as they were giving years ago, even though their incomes have gone up?
If you look at the "how" people bring to the Lord, you can easily see why Christians do not experience the blessings of God.
I could guarantee that I can come into any church and receive the tithes and offers for 6 months and within that time frame the finances of people and the church would totally turn around.
Faith comes by hearing the Word. Once people give the way God told to give things break open.
I tell people in our church all the time, "Don't give if you are not giving the way God said. We don't need your money, our bills aren't past due, and you are not our source." Then I teach God's way of giving!
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I counseled with our pastor and he said, “Chris, I know you’ve been faithful in your giving. I want you to take what you’d normally give and take care of this debt. Debt is bondage. And God expects us to pay our debts. Also you have to provide for your family’s needs. It’ isn’t going to benefit or bless anyone to see your family loose your home and all you’ve worked for.” I answered, “But this is God’s money.”
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1. Your pastor was right in that debt is a bondage, but reality is you made the decision to go into debt God didn't lead you into debt.
2. Your pastor was right in that God expects us to pay our debts.
3. Your pastor was right in that God expects you to provide for your family
4. In the end you had more wisdom than your pastor when you said, "this is God's money."
I am one that can speak from experience. Through a series of bad decisions, not walking in unity with my wife, and some other stuck on stupid things we ended up with $70K in credit card/consumer debt + house payment, car payments, and two kids to raise.
Our first order of business was to repent.
Second order of business was for my wife and I to get into agreement
Third order of business was to get God active in our situation. Tithes and offerings came FIRST.
Third order of business was to get out of debt.
Walking with God I was debt free in 18 months. Either God is a respector of persons and He likes me better than others, or I was just willing to continue walking in faith no matter what the circumstances looked like.
Faith works, the Word works, God is faithful. Christians are typically moved by their circumstances.
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The Pastor explained that he was the steward of God’s money and then he said, “Consider it given back to you.
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Don't get insulted again, but I would definitely find a new Pastor
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Recently we’ve experienced another drought in our finances. And mercy came through once again.
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If I were you I would get off the mercy kick and find out why you keep going into these messes. I'm not saying we don't come up against hard times. We have an adversary, I understand that. But we should have to steal from God to make ends meet. There is something deeper here that you should be looking at.
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By all means one does well by giving 10% of their increase to the kingdom. In fact one should give more than 10% if able.
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Again you make my point. Your giving is an afterthought. If I have enough I will give and even give big. God wants to be first.
Over the last few years I have been stuck in the 22-25% giving range. Things were stagnant and I wanted to do more. I had prayed many times for the Lord to increase me so I could give more, but nothing happened.
I finally realized that getting more to give more is not biblical. Giving more first was biblical. We stepped up. Last year 2007 we gave 35% of our GROSS income. It was the best year we've had. The increase came after we put God first.
My wife and I both got raises simultaneously representing about $700 a month increase. We gave 100% of the increase into the Kingdom for the first 6 months. We have a 6 month rule. Every time God increases us we give Him the increase for the first 6 months.
My goal is to give into the Kingdom a minimum of 51% of my Gross income so that more of my life is about Him than about me. What I have found is that the more I put Him first the more He releases into my life.
Final point:
One of the biggest arguments about the tithe that people make is the care of the poor and widows.
But I bet you that the majority of people who don't give the tithe don't help the poor either. It's not the poor and the widows it's about our wanting our money and doing things our way.