Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

[jediwill83]

Im having a Gru moment......"Lightbulb...."

[Spirit&Truth]

Originally Posted by Esaias

(con't)

Now, as to the question regarding obligatory tithes from produce sourced outside the land of Israel. It would seem that normally, produce sourced from outside the land of Israel would not be subject to a mandatory tithe requirement, since Jacob never vowed a tenth of the agricultural produce of other lands (which he couldn't have done anyway, really, since they weren't given to him and weren't his to vow). The Sinaitic commandment concerning the tithe was enacted in order to fulfill Jacob's vow. He had vowed ten percent of the produce of the land, therefore it was dedicated to God and thus holy, it belonged to God. So Jacob's descendants, in whom Jacob would be given the land, would be required to fulfill their father's vow. Jacob would fulfill his vow in his children.

Israelites living in foreign lands would of course not be under obligation to pay a tithe on the agricultural produce generated in those lands - just as Jacob seemed to recognise no obligation to tithe anything he had gotten from Laban. Jacob's vow had nothing to do with foreign lands. Israelites living abroad would be living in someone else's land, subject to those foreign laws, vows, etc. Thus, no requirement to tithe that stuff to God.

Again, the obligatory nature of tithes depended upon Jacob's vow concerning the land of Israel. In fact, it may be that if Jacob had never made the vow he made, there would have been no requirement to tithe anything at all, to begin with.

Now, an interesting question arises concerning if and when Israelites obtained foreign lands by conquest (or by some other means). If they acquired a foreign land, and were not merely living in those foreign lands as strangers and pilgrims, but rather as the primary inhabitants or citizens, then it would seem the tithe requirement would kick in. The land would have been given to them by God. Thus, it would be considered to have been given to Jacob, and therefore possibly subject to the tithing vow.

In other words, did the two and a half tribes that settled on the east of Jordan have an obligation to pay tithes?

Just read through your posts. Solid stuff here. You laid that all out much better than I could have.

When it comes to the modern "tithe" doctrine, here are the basics for me:

1. Tithes in the OT were not money, only agriculture and livestock. As you point out, I believe this was related to Jacob's vow.
2. While it is possible Abraham's tithe may have CONTAINED money (we don't know for sure), there are too many dissimilarities between his tithe and the modern day teaching of mandatory tithing in churches. These dissimilarities:
a. He wasn't tithing on income, but on the spoils of a war
b. He didn't even keep the other 90%, he gave it back to the king of Sodom, on whose behalf he was fighting. \
3. In the New Testament, tithing is only mentioned in reference to OT and Jewish customs. What IS taught, is giving cheerfully, and not under compulsion.
4. Malachi chapter 3 is taken ridiculously out of context and applied to church laypeople, when really those passages were directed at the priests who were misusing God's tithe.

On top of these basic reasons, my personal thoughts and observations are that "tithing", as it is taught in modern Christendom (i.e. a recurring payment of 10% of one's monetary income to the church, otherwise you are "robbing God") is not only in conflict with Old Testament customs, but also with the New Testament teachings regarding grace. God wants 100% of our lives. Legalism (a frequently misunderstood word) will try to set in to the point that we will try to fulfill a checklist of do's and do-not's and never go any further. I have personally observed and even heard preached that "you should be happy that God let's you keep the other 90%" but that is false! All of it belongs to God. and we should be willing and ready to give however much God lays on our hearts, whether it is 10% or 50% or 100%.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth

Just read through your posts. Solid stuff here. You laid that all out much better than I could have.

When it comes to the modern "tithe" doctrine, here are the basics for me:

1. Tithes in the OT were not money, only agriculture and livestock. As you point out, I believe this was related to Jacob's vow.
2. While it is possible Abraham's tithe may have CONTAINED money (we don't know for sure), there are too many dissimilarities between his tithe and the modern day teaching of mandatory tithing in churches. These dissimilarities:
a. He wasn't tithing on income, but on the spoils of a war
b. He didn't even keep the other 90%, he gave it back to the king of Sodom, on whose behalf he was fighting. \
3. In the New Testament, tithing is only mentioned in reference to OT and Jewish customs. What IS taught, is giving cheerfully, and not under compulsion.
4. Malachi chapter 3 is taken ridiculously out of context and applied to church laypeople, when really those passages were directed at the priests who were misusing God's tithe.

On top of these basic reasons, my personal thoughts and observations are that "tithing", as it is taught in modern Christendom (i.e. a recurring payment of 10% of one's monetary income to the church, otherwise you are "robbing God") is not only in conflict with Old Testament customs, but also with the New Testament teachings regarding grace. God wants 100% of our lives. Legalism (a frequently misunderstood word) will try to set in to the point that we will try to fulfill a checklist of do's and do-not's and never go any further. I have personally observed and even heard preached that "you should be happy that God let's you keep the other 90%" but that is false! All of it belongs to God. and we should be willing and ready to give however much God lays on our hearts, whether it is 10% or 50% or 100%.

Heres the deal..if you're going to apply an OT curse for certain behavior its gotta be used in context and that means that the tithe and offereings*plural* must be given in the same way at the same times to the same people for the same reasons...Theology aint like playing around with Mr. Potato Head...snatching a nose here and an eye there and stick them wherever.


When I said you I didnt mean "you" personally...just a general statement.


My red pill moment on tithing was when I found the scripture that mentions "eating of the tithe"


Not the smartest cookie in the jar but I knew that you cant eat money.


Then when I brought it up I was actually told,"Well, that's because they didnt HAVE money because they were an agrarian society."


Well...is money mentioned in the OT?


Cause it is...


So I was passed some bad excuses for bad docrine not supported by scripture.


Anyone that says "Dont question"...thats because they dont have good answers and they dont want you looking too closely.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Heres the deal..if you're going to apply an OT curse for certain behavior its gotta be used in context and that means that the tithe and offereings*plural* must be given in the same way at the same times to the same people for the same reasons...Theology aint like playing around with Mr. Potato Head...snatching a nose here and an eye there and stick them wherever.


When I said you I didnt mean "you" personally...just a general statement.


My red pill moment on tithing was when I found the scripture that mentions "eating of the tithe"


Not the smartest cookie in the jar but I knew that you cant eat money.


Then when I brought it up I was actually told,"Well, that's because they didnt HAVE money because they were an agrarian society."


Well...is money mentioned in the OT?


Cause it is...


So I was passed some bad excuses for bad docrine not supported by scripture.


Anyone that says "Dont question"...thats because they dont have good answers and they dont want you looking too closely.

IIRC, money is mentioned more in the book of Genesis than any other book in the Bible. More than all the New Testament books combined.

Also money is mentioned (l believe) forty two times, BEFORE the word tithe is ever mentioned in Genesis.

[jediwill83]

Sorry for that duplicate post.

[Tithesmeister]

It is pretty obvious that for whatever reason, God did NOT want His tithe to be rendered in money. Because money was certainly available.

[Spirit&Truth]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

It is pretty obvious that for whatever reason, God did NOT want His tithe to be rendered in money. Because money was certainly available.

It seems obvious to me that it is because of Jacob's vow. I believe that vow is tied super close with the OT concept of tithing. They were literally giving a tenth of the promised land back to God. God never even initially commanded it; God promised to give him the promised land, and in response Jacob promised he would give a tenth of what God gave him. This was all related to the richness of the land, not money.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth

It seems obvious to me that it is because of Jacob's vow. I believe that vow is tied super close with the OT concept of tithing. They were literally giving a tenth of the promised land back to God. God never even initially commanded it; God promised to give him the promised land, and in response Jacob promised he would give a tenth of what God gave him. This was all related to the richness of the land, not money.

Not only that but when you get into the Levitical tithe system...how many tithes were there?


Who tithed when did they tithe and what did they tithe?


Was the tithe supposed to go just to the priests?


All of it?


Were the Levites that were not priests in service to the temple...were they performing any I dunno....governmental bureaucratic work?





Lotta questions to be answered if we are following the scripture in its entirety and again...we cant jerryrig curses on people that dont apply and NEITHER can we declare BLESSINGS out of context as well....

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

IIRC, money is mentioned more in the book of Genesis than any other book in the Bible. More than all the New Testament books combined.

Also money is mentioned (l believe) forty two times, BEFORE the word tithe is ever mentioned in Genesis.

Correction: Money is mentioned thirty one times in Genesis unless I have made a mistake in counting , however tithes is mentioned first. Tithes is mentioned in the fourteenth chapter, while money is first mentioned in chapter seventeen.

I think money is mentioned forty eight times before the tithe was ordered by God in the book of Leviticus. So, just trying to set the record straight.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Thithing has always been in place even before the law. There was no “ fulfillment “ of a type and/or shadow of anything to do with thithing. Jesus mentioned it in the gospel and said “these have you ought to have done”. Unlike the sabbath that had a type and shadow and dealt with it totally different in the gospel when the situation arose.

Concerning facial hair. It’s just that a “ standard “ and a good one .

Well it looks like Hometown Guy went home. I thought I’d comment on this post, since it’s the nearest he has come lately to quoting scripture.

Luke.11

[42] But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These Pharisees were tithing all manner of herbs, as well they should, because herbs are by definition, seed bearing plant. And according to the law of Moses . . .

Lev.27

[30] And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

. . . They were supposed to tithe of the seed of the land. So they were only following the law. Jesus said they should do so. That’s all.

I’m glad Hometown Guy doesn’t go by Bible Guy because that would be deceptive. He’s remarkably similar to SE, who also doesn’t quote scripture to support his tithe belief.

Maybe Hometown Guy is Steve Epley?

Or maybe they both have no scripture to support their similar positions on tithing?

Or maybe they both want us to believe what they say, only because they said so?

Maybe they don’t really believe it either?

Bring the goods!