I Love You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

So far, I haven't seen many threads, if any, stay on topic.

We will do our best for this one...it is too important.

Carp: Thank you, and I think if you look a little more closely you will agree that Paul's doctrine concerning the family is really at the root of your concerns.

Errors in attitude towards the church that are taught by leadership are repeated in the people of the church. This results in widespread improper notions.

There may be some personal concerns beyond this being discussed. Paul would not have addressed these issues which are a matter of private prayer.

Do you believe that church distracts from home life and marriage relationships? There are men who resent the pastorate for this reason. It must be justified sometimes.

[MrsMcD]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

We will do our best for this one...it is too important.

You are right!

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Tim you nailed it perfectly square, the head just below the surface!

I was afraid the direction was going toward pastoral familes.

I think the church has created a framework around families, more importantly around the marital relationship, of what is acceptable in terms of, not what goes on in the bedroom, but how women are treated, their position, how they are viewed, and limitations in most every other area.

Men aren't left out of the equasion, we are taught and conditioned (most of the time by suggestion and innuendo and not didactic by Rob Tripani) how to treat and regard our spouses in public.

With the Apostolic church it is ALL about public perception and it has influenced the way they have conditioned their folks to act and react.

Call it choice if you like, we are all conditioned by cultural factors, like it or not. I oppose this conditioning being associated to scriptural tennant when it is only a convenient behavior to culture the church.

Not to question your intent too much, but I was the first one to mention pastor's families and you agreed rather quickly.

I do, however, understand that your assertion would have been in general as you were not raised in a Pastor's home.

Unfortunatley we are all preconditioned to respond based upon our perceptions. If your church environment were as you described then I can understand your assertions without much argument. But there are others who did not have the same church environment. Therefore, our conclusions are totally different. For instance, I have ben a part of 10 different churches and not one have them have espoused the view or cultural distinctive you are saying exists. Does that mean it does not exist? Not at all. We are well aware that it does.

For some this topic is valuable and full of insight. For others it is just another opportunity to criticize pastoral ministry. Which in it's own way is what the opening post was doing IMO. But then again, the pastoral ministry is not above question or criticism. And whether one agreees or not questions and criticisms can be offered in non-offensive ways, such as Carp did with the thread starter.

[rgcraig]

All I was saying was I was a wife.....I was second in our marriage because the church came first.

Just so happened he was a minister.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

All I was saying was I was a wife.....I was second in our marriage because the church came first.

Just so happened he was a minister.

And within reason one could say if he had not been a minister you might still have been second. Some things supercede vocational decisions.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by rrford

And within reason one could say if he had not been a minister you might still have been second. Some things supercede vocational decisions.

Exactly! So no one should be offended. Executive high achievers do the same thing to their families. Still wrong.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Advocate

Carp: Thank you, and I think if you look a little more closely you will agree that Paul's doctrine concerning the family is really at the root of your concerns.

Do you believe that church distracts from home life and marriage relationships? There are men who resent the pastorate for this reason. It must be justified sometimes.

No, I don't believe that church in and of itself distracts from homelife and marriage...in general. However, there is a culture alive and well in the Apostolic church, perpetuated by its leadership, that expects to be inserted into the family network, and this includes the pastor. The church should be a resource to families, not the other way around.

There is a paradox taking place in families because they are not sure who is their spiritual leader?

They THINK they know because everyone agrees, but who agrees with whom? Where are conflicts resolved, by whom and who has the authority to make a decision for the family? It is a rude awakening when folks are forced to discover their true allegience. Many men are not going to church today because of this very thing.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by rrford

Not to question your intent too much, but I was the first one to mention pastor's families and you agreed rather quickly.

I do, however, understand that your assertion would have been in general as you were not raised in a Pastor's home.

Unfortunatley we are all preconditioned to respond based upon our perceptions. If your church environment were as you described then I can understand your assertions without much argument. But there are others who did not have the same church environment. Therefore, our conclusions are totally different. For instance, I have ben a part of 10 different churches and not one have them have espoused the view or cultural distinctive you are saying exists. Does that mean it does not exist? Not at all. We are well aware that it does.

For some this topic is valuable and full of insight. For others it is just another opportunity to criticize pastoral ministry. Which in it's own way is what the opening post was doing IMO. But then again, the pastoral ministry is not above question or criticism. And whether one agreees or not questions and criticisms can be offered in non-offensive ways, such as Carp did with the thread starter.

You did mention pastors first, but you were in context, those others weren't.

I hate criticism of of pastoral ministries. This is not about that. It is about perspective and the culture the church is locked into. One single pastor is not to blame.

Who established the culture? Human nature in terms of preserving comfort zones, and that which works to perpetuate a movement.

You could say that to an extent Pastors are a victim.

[rgcraig]

So, are we still talking about hairspray?