Let's Talk about This. Seriously!

EA · #1 04-14-2009, 04:22 PM

http://rodneyshaw.wordpress.com/2009...t-our-problem/

Our real concern is with the day and age in which we live and the barrage of change we are facing. The real dilemma is whether or not we can maintain apostolic identity in a postmodern world. That is the real challenge. We are failing to attract young ministers. We are failing to keep young ministers. We have a church culture that is often critical of innovation. We apparently do not have a sustainable plan for succession. Relentlessly beating on the emergent church will not solve these problems.

We Apostolics have a tendency to define ourselves over against what we are not. Having a defined enemy gives us some comfort, but using the emergent church as a scapegoat for postmodernism and the larger issues of our day is no solution. Now I am no fan of the emergent church and I have no tolerance for the abandonment of biblical truth, but it is a strategic mistake for us to point all our guns at the emergent church. Who will be our enemy when they pass on? There is no single problem or movement, that if attacked and castigated, will eliminate the challenges we are facing. If the emergent church collapses tomorrow, every issue that we face will still be on the table.

It must be realized that, based on the emergent church’s description of themselves, we have no emergents among us. We have a lot of innovators and a lot of people who are trying to be relevant and articulate the gospel in ways that are consistent with postmodernism, and we have a few who are abandoning apostolic doctrine, but by definition we do not have any emergents. It is therefore unproductive to use the emergent label indiscriminately. It is both inaccurate and unhelpful.

Ferd · #2 04-14-2009, 04:24 PM

I remember Rodney from back before he went to bible school! we got into some trouble together.

He sure is a good writer! Its good to see a good guy turn out good.

tstew · #3 04-14-2009, 04:27 PM

I pray for him. I think it is vital that we have some voices like his to bridge the gap.

EA · #4 04-14-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd

I remember Rodney from back before he went to bible school! we got into some trouble together.

He sure is a good writer! Its good to see a good guy turn out good.

Okay Ferd, from everything I see and hear, Shaw is widely considered "fair and balanced."

So, with that in mind, what do you think of his comments?

WHY are we not attracting young ministers?

WHY are we losing young ministers?

Ferd · #5 04-14-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Okay Ferd, from everything I see and hear, Shaw is widely considered "fair and balanced."

So, with that in mind, what do you think of his comments?

WHY are we not attracting young ministers?

WHY are we losing young ministers?

well... honestly I am more interested in what is happening with this move to get rid of a precieved "Emergent" movement in the UPCI.

I fear sometimes in the UPCI we tend to look at a guy who has decided to "do church" differently than everyone else and say he has left doctrine without ever looking at the doctrine he is preaching.

As to your question.... I wonder if that might not be part of the problem?

EA · #6 04-14-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd

well... honestly I am more interested in what is happening with this move to get rid of a precieved "Emergent" movement in the UPCI.

I fear sometimes in the UPCI we tend to look at a guy who has decided to "do church" differently than everyone else and say he has left doctrine without ever looking at the doctrine he is preaching.

As to your question.... I wonder if that might not be part of the problem?

I think the reason is that our elders don't trust us.

Another reason is, there's nothing left of the UPC (and I am not bashing here). It is a shell of its former self. Young ministers are finding a place of edification, mentoring and visioneering outside of the org.

EA · #7 04-14-2009, 04:36 PM

And yes, the move to "kill" anything that looks different is counter-productive.

Digging4Truth · #8 04-14-2009, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Okay Ferd, from everything I see and hear, Shaw is widely considered "fair and balanced."

So, with that in mind, what do you think of his comments?

WHY are we not attracting young ministers?

WHY are we losing young ministers?

If I may...

Something begins to lose steam when it is no longer (pardon me for the use of the word)... relevant.

The reason there is such a "barrage of change" is because the church isn't adapting. We stand on our soapboxes and well yell to the top of our lungs how we are going to hold to the old ways when most of the old ways are not God's ways... they are the ways that we did God's work.

They weren't wrong... but they weren't the law either. They were our methods. You have to drop old methods when the old methods don't work anymore because, if you don't, in the end you can stand tall that you stayed with the "old ways" but you will be standing alone... or very close to being alone. When we can no longer tell the difference between His message and our methods then we are doomed to eventually find ourselves shoring up the wrong thing and tearing down the right things.

A relevant (there's that word again), vibrant ministry reaches out to people where they are in methods that they can relate to. A ministry like that does not have trouble recruiting young people. It has trouble finding a place for all of the young people that want to be a part of it.

Hooray to this brother for several things...

Recognizing that there is a barrage of change. There is change. But the only thing that makes it a "barrage" is that we aren't keeping up.

It is unproductive to use the emergent church label indiscriminately. Hallelujah... Thank you Jesus... Ain't God good... FINALLY. Finally someone wakes up and realizes that "emergent church" isn't a doctrine... It is a method.

Are there false doctrines being taught in emergent churches. Yes. Also in regular churches.

Are the "leaders" of the emergent church touters of false doctrine. yes. But so are the "christian" leaders of today.

If this brother is a sign of things to come... there is hope.

tstew · #9 04-14-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I think the reason is that our elders don't trust us.

Another reason is, there's nothing left of the UPC (and I am not bashing here). It is a shell of its former self. Young ministers are finding a place of edification, mentoring and visioneering outside of the org.

EA, I don't find this to be true at all. I think some tough decisions and honest communication needs to happen, but I don't think the org is dead by a long shot. Hopefully, it will will find the balanced, common ground so many people are looking for.

On a related note, I would be interested to see how the numbers among young ministers and members are in the other established organizations. We live in a country that has people turning away from all religion in great numbers...particularly among the youth.

Digging4Truth · #10 04-14-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstew

EA, I don't find this to be true at all. I think some tough decisions and honest communication needs to happen, but I don't think the org is dead by a long shot. Hopefully, it will will find the balanced, common ground so many people are looking for.

On a related note, I would be interested to see how the numbers among young ministers and members are in the other established organizations. We live in a country that has people turning away from all religion in great numbers...particularly among the youth.

The youth are growing tired of staring at naked kings.