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  #11  
Old 07-18-2008, 06:39 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

The members of this campaign do not realize that most of their "grievances" are on a local level .... also asking the org to "streamline" their doctrinal beliefs is what has caused this mess ... "see affirmation statement" ... also a third party does audit the UPCI's financials.

This sounds like a local church that has some beef w/ a pastor w/ little to no knowledge on the constitutional workings or the infrastructure of the UPCI.

Change will not come w/ more rules or regulations... it will come when each church is respected to make their own decisions on a local level w/ little centralized controls.

My advice is find a different church ... or start one.

Kudos for being vocal ... and they now have 7 sigs.
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2008, 06:50 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Remove variances of holiness standards between churches and make an official position that the church can stand behind in unity.

The majority of the petition's requests appeared reasonable, except for the one above. It seemed that this would promote corporate holiness standards, which wouldn't be biblical.
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:01 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
The members of this campaign do not realize that most of their "grievances" are on a local level .... also asking the org to "streamline" their doctrinal beliefs is what has caused this mess ... "see affirmation statement" ... also a third party does audit the UPCI's financials.

This sounds like a local church that has some beef w/ a pastor w/ little to no knowledge on the constitutional workings or the infrastructure of the UPCI.

Change will not come w/ more rules or regulations... it will come when each church is respected to make their own decisions on a local level w/ little centralized controls.

My advice is find a different church ... or start one.

Kudos for being vocal ... and they now have 7 sigs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenbyone View Post
Remove variances of holiness standards between churches and make an official position that the church can stand behind in unity.

The majority of the petition's requests appeared reasonable, except for the one above. It seemed that this would promote corporate holiness standards, which wouldn't be biblical.
I think the main problem is the scale at which they are going at this. Reform generally doesn't happen on a massive scale such as this (bearing in mind as you say Dan, that some of it is already in play, and as you say CBO, some would not be biblical).

I think whoever wrote this has some good points, but the only way these points are going to be addressed is individually. Knowing this organization the way I do, and lets face it, any organization, things will change, if they change, on a case by case instance.

I'm sure that is not what they are looking for, but really, massive reformation generally never happens without a war, and I for one, am tired of the fighting.
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  #14  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:05 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

From my understanding, the UPCI is a fellowship of ministers - not an denomination. As such, the organization has no power over a local church. Another way of putting that is that the UPCI recognizes the autonomy of the local church and a man being called by Jesus Christ to Pastor that church - not an organization.
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  #15  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:08 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
The members of this campaign do not realize that most of their "grievances" are on a local level .... also asking the org to "streamline" their doctrinal beliefs is what has caused this mess ... "see affirmation statement" ... also a third party does audit the UPCI's financials.

This sounds like a local church that has some beef w/ a pastor w/ little to no knowledge on the constitutional workings or the infrastructure of the UPCI.

Change will not come w/ more rules or regulations... it will come when each church is respected to make their own decisions on a local level w/ little centralized controls.

My advice is find a different church ... or start one.

Kudos for being vocal ... and they now have 7 sigs.
Well... just to be contrarian...

While from a practical level this may be "just pie in the sky..." it does show how the UPC itself can learn to write "rules" that everyone can live with - don't write those rules at all.

What's a statement that everyone can agree on concerning wedding rings? No statement all.

What's a statement on facial hair that everyone can agree on? No statement all.

Once the UPC (and other Apostolic orgs) grow up and start taking spiritually mature "stands" on these silly "issues" then real progress can be made toward authentic holiness.
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  #16  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:12 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
From my understanding, the UPCI is a fellowship of ministers - not an denomination. As such, the organization has no power over a local church. Another way of putting that is that the UPCI recognizes the autonomy of the local church and a man being called by Jesus Christ to Pastor that church - not an organization.
That is accurate. However, from a practical standpoint the org itself is still riven by the various conflicting "standards" imposed by those pastors who seldom agree on anything.

The effect that this has on the lives of the saints attending the various churches in the org is often devastating. Families are broken apart, life long friendships are abandoned. How can you build human institutions when you're constantly tearing humans apart?
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  #17  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:12 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
From my understanding, the UPCI is a fellowship of ministers - not an denomination. As such, the organization has no power over a local church. Another way of putting that is that the UPCI recognizes the autonomy of the local church and a man being called by Jesus Christ to Pastor that church - not an organization.
Exactly that's the theoretical practice ... although in some areas of governance their has been centralized control coming for HQ and local districts.

Many times this is evident when their is a transition of pastors and a local church is affiliated.

Once again, the requests have little understanding of the infrastructure ... or the political gravitas needed to have resolutions that would make changes in this type of structure.

Dizzy said there would have to be a "war" for massive reformation... which is one undesirable recourse ...

the other two are

economic failure

or

grass roots movement among the ministers that demands a constitutional convention ... as what happened when the Articles of Confederation fell flat on it's face and delegates met to write an new constitution.
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  #18  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:13 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
Well... just to be contrarian...

While from a practical level this may be "just pie in the sky..." it does show how the UPC itself can learn to write "rules" that everyone can live with - don't write those rules at all.

What's a statement that everyone can agree on concerning wedding rings? No statement all.

What's a statement on facial hair that everyone can agree on? No statement all.

Once the UPC (and other Apostolic orgs) grow up and start taking spiritually mature "stands" on these silly "issues" then real progress can be made toward authentic holiness.
I agree de-regulation is what is needed.
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  #19  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:14 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

Dear ones...it is easier said than done...
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  #20  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:19 PM
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Re: Anonymous Calls For Reform In The UPCI

The more reasonable and real option is SLOW .... INCREMENTAL reform.
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