Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Go back to post 1 and click the link to Mark August study.

I read some of it. But a lot of that was mere speculation at best.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I read some of it. But a lot of that was mere speculation at best.

As many might say about your beliefs.

I guess you dont have the interest to read it. To bad you could learn some things. But I understand some things I dont have much interest in reading.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Col. 1:15

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Logos is the IMAGE of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

Logos is firstborn of every CREATION/CREATURE.

The word was made, formed, begotten to be the place from which God created all things. From his image he spoke "let there be". The first thing God ever made was an image for some of his eternal Spirit to dwell.

Then he made all things.

Firstborn of every creature does not mean the Logos was the first thing created. If it does, then the Logos is a creature rather than the Creator.

All things were made by the Logos, and without (apart from) Him was not anything made that was made.

Therefore, if the Logos was made, it was made by the Logos. Which is impossible. Therefore the Logos was not made, it simply always was. As John says, "in the beginning was the Logos". It just was, because He is God, who just was.

The Logos was God, yet besides Jehovah there was no God formed (made, or created). I definitely do not agree that God made the Logos. I think that idea leads directly to Arianism and trinitarianism. Both doctrines maintain "the first thing Father did was create/make the Logos, who then created/made everything else". Jehovah becomes Creator by proxy (via the Logos), who is the agent of God creating everything (else).

I believe this is contrary to the Scriptures which teach Jehovah created everything by Himself alone. The Logos is the Self Revelation or Self Expression of God. God always was the Logos, just as God always was the Holy Spirit.

Colossians ch 1 is teaching that Christ is the firstborn of every creature. Verse 13 specifies that it is the SON who is the firstborn of every creature. Therefore the doctrine concerns the MAN, it is in reference to the Incarnation. Firstborn means Jesus - the MAN - is the firstborn, He occupies the position of the Heir entitled to the double portion, He is the head of God's family and the Primary heir.

It does not mean the Logos was "begotten first".

[houston]

MTD the binitarian.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Firstborn of every creature does not mean the Logos was the first thing created. If it does, then the Logos is a creature rather than the Creator.

All things were made by the Logos, and without (apart from) Him was not anything made that was made.

Therefore, if the Logos was made, it was made by the Logos. Which is impossible. Therefore the Logos was not made, it simply always was. As John says, "in the beginning was the Logos". It just was, because He is God, who just was.

The Logos was God, yet besides Jehovah there was no God formed (made, or created). I definitely do not agree that God made the Logos. I think that idea leads directly to Arianism and trinitarianism. Both doctrines maintain "the first thing Father did was create/make the Logos, who then created/made everything else". Jehovah becomes Creator by proxy (via the Logos), who is the agent of God creating everything (else).

I believe this is contrary to the Scriptures which teach Jehovah created everything by Himself alone. The Logos is the Self Revelation or Self Expression of God. God always was the Logos, just as God always was the Holy Spirit.

Colossians ch 1 is teaching that Christ is the firstborn of every creature. Verse 13 specifies that it is the SON who is the firstborn of every creature. Therefore the doctrine concerns the MAN, it is in reference to the Incarnation. Firstborn means Jesus - the MAN - is the firstborn, He occupies the position of the Heir entitled to the double portion, He is the head of God's family and the Primary heir.

It does not mean the Logos was "begotten first".

Well, that's that, then, I guess.

[Michael The Disciple]

The Logos was God, yet besides Jehovah there was no God formed (made, or created). I definitely do not agree that God made the Logos. I think that idea leads directly to Arianism and trinitarianism. Both doctrines maintain "the first thing Father did was create/make the Logos, who then created/made everything else". Jehovah becomes Creator by proxy (via the Logos), who is the agent of God creating everything (else).

This thread points to the link by Mark August in the 1st post. He is pointing out where Arianism and Trinitarianism came from. The early Church believed the Logos was both WITH GOD and WAS GOD simultaneously.

As to being WITH GOD the Logos was born, created, and formed.

Formed:

Phil. 2:5

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Born:

Col. 1

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Created:

Rev. 3:14

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

So the Logos was all of this. The distinction never was as Trins teach another God person. Or as Arians teach a begotten Son who was NOT God.

The Logos was YAH HIMSELF in a visible form.

This Logos later became Jesus Christ.

As to Logos BEING GOD consider this.

John 1:1

In the BEGINNING was the word (logos) and the word was with God and the word was God.

The literal Greek is:

In the BEGINNING was the word and the word was with God and GOD was the word.

God himself was the Logos. In the beginning he formed, created, gave birth to a visible image of himself.

Before the beginning no image was needed. There was no one, or nothing else to see God. God was simply omnipresent spirit. This essence was /is to large to be contained by the Galaxies.

1 Kings 8:27

27But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

That is why God needed a form. So he could be seen by his creation.

Col. 1:17

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God used this form as it were himself. His fullness dwelled there in visibility. So it was WITH HIM but it was not ALL OF HIM.

The rest of him was still everywhere there was anywhere to be.

Jeremiah 23:24

24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

This doctrine only leads to Arianism or Trinitarianism when one tears it away from the doctrine of:

Hear Israel the Lord our God is one Lord. Duet 6:4

It actually WAS the doctrine taught by the Apostles. But unlearned men rose up and began distorting the truth and inventing a Logos who was not formed from God himself but had been a created Son who was NOT YAH as in the case of Arians.

Or as in the case of Trins and Twins making the Logos into another distinct God person.

It was when this revelation was perverted that other groups began to arise in history. The link to Mark August teaching on this explains this connection quoting what are called the "early church fathers".

Paul taught God made all things by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

Isaiah said YHWH created all things alone and by himself.

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Both of these truths are true when we realize the first thing God ever made was a form, image, spiritual body to manifest himself through.

That was the Logos later revealed by the name Jesus Christ!

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe this is contrary to the Scriptures which teach Jehovah created everything by Himself alone. The Logos is the Self Revelation or Self Expression of God. God always was the Logos, just as God always was the Holy Spirit.

So what is meant by the "self expression" of God if it is not what I have described?

[Michael The Disciple]

Colossians ch 1 is teaching that Christ is the firstborn of every creature. Verse 13 specifies that it is the SON who is the firstborn of every creature. Therefore the doctrine concerns the MAN, it is in reference to the Incarnation. Firstborn means Jesus - the MAN - is the firstborn, He occupies the position of the Heir entitled to the double portion, He is the head of God's family and the Primary heir.

Do you believe the "firstborn" created all things? Jesus as a MAN created all things?

So Son and Man are always synonomous?

Did Paul believe it was a MAN who made the worlds?

Heb 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Paul said God made the world BY HIS SON. I cant see the Son being identified as a human being in this verse.

Rather Paul describes the Son....the one who God created all things through as the brightness of his glory and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON.

So it seems a mistake for we as Oneness to say "Son" only refers to humanity.

It DOES refer to his humanity but not EXCLUSIVELY to it.

[houston]

2 gods!?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

2 gods!?

He thought so.