Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[easter]

Another thought just occurred to me...
Is Hell not a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth?
Hell is a different place then the Lake of Fire,just so you know.Why on earth would the Father keep his children spiritually dead and the unjust,unsaved conscious?

[Michael The Disciple]

Over and over we are told that when we die our spirit is alive in Heaven with eternal life and its only the body that will gain eternal life at the second coming.

Did Paul believe this?

1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor. 5:1-5

When will the spirit be saved? As soon as we die?

Paul says in the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS!

[Michael The Disciple]

Consider what Paul told his accusers:

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Notice the HOPE Paul was living for. THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Also note:

6: But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

Again Pauls HOPE is in the resurrection of the dead.

Now to me if it were true that as soon as we die we are in the joy of Heaven THAT would be a greater hope than the resurrection! Why did Paul not preach IT (eternal life without resurrection)?

He does not even mention it in his evangelistic work!

His theme over and over is THE RESURRECTION.

Think about the foundation doctrines of Christ:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now most people certainly emphasize "eternal life at death" doctrine. Like I said if it were true it WOULD be more important than the mere resurrection of a dead human body!

Yet Paul never includes it as a FOUNDATION DOCTRINE!

Isnt that amazing?

Something that important. Possibly the most important thing of all and its not even a foundation doctrine of the Church!

Oh friends are you beginning to sense something is wrong with this doctrine?

[Michael The Disciple]

There are two main attacks against the Apostolic teaching of the resurrection. I will deal with one of them now.

Over and over Preachers tell us the mass of scripture that teaches THE DEAD are given life at resurrection is only talking about DEAD BODIES AND NOT THE DEAD THEMSELVES.

Take 1 Cor. 15. Paul goes into great detail teaching us about when we are made alive. When we are given immortality. Its all about the GOOD NEWS. The GOSPEL and the good news are one.

Lets think on this scripture:

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

How could Paul say this if he thought his "immortal soul" automatically went to be with Jesus at death?

Why would he say the Christian message would have no advantage if it were not for THE RESURRECTION?

But Paul! Dont we go to Heaven WHEN WE DIE? Are we not rejoicing and praising the Almighty at the throne?

Isnt the resurrection just a SECONDARY EVENT that really adds little to the great eternal life we receive at death?

Friends Paul said IF THE DEAD RISE NOT. This "rising"is THE RESURRECTION PLAINLY.

He says APART FROM THE RESURRECTION we might as well eat and drink and have fun.

Pauls HOPE was the RESURRECTION.

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

How could Paul say there is no advantage to being a Christian if the DEAD RISE NOT if indeed there are those who have been enjoying their eternal life and immortality right now in Heaven?

Why was not Pauls HOPE in the fact he would have instant Heaven and eternal life at death? It obviously was not if it was THE RESURRECTION.

Its obvious that most think THAT experience is a far greater hope than the resurrection.

See it?

There would most CERTAINLY be advantage in being a Christian if as soon as we die we have eternal life.

But here Paul seems to not even be aware of such a thing!

He is preaching to them the GOSPEL (good news) that he believed in.

The whole chapter he is telling us about the resurrection of THE DEAD not merely dead bodies.

What great thing would we be gaining if we had been alive in Heaven for 2000 years and then we gained a body? What were we doing in Heaven those 2000 years without one? And how would having one add anything to us when we are already immortal beings with eternal life?

If the DEAD RISE NOT let us go party!

In this whole chapter dedicated to telling about THE GOOD NEWS ( the gospel) there is not one word about anyone having eternal life BEFORE THE SECOND COMING WHEN THE DEAD ARE RAISED!

There is the deception.

People are preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL!

Pauls gospel is all about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

[Michael The Disciple]

I am continuing from the previous line of thinking from my previous post.

Look at this scripture:

35: But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 1 Cor. 15:35

Lets pretend for a moment it reads like many think.

How are THE DEAD BODIES raised up and with what body do THEY COME?

See how awkward that would be? A body is not an entity in itself. It is not alive at all apart from the spirit.

Why would Paul be talking about dead bodies as if they apart from the spirit had personality? Why would he spend so much time talking about how great the resurrection will be if it merely pertains to dead bodies?

Will the spirits that supposedly are alive in Heaven spend thousands of years sitting in Heaven hoping that they will some day get a body to wear? Will they be sad because they are missing their body? Thats the way the instant Heaven doctrine comes across when it is challenged concerning the scriptures that clearly point to eternal life and immortality at the resurrection.

When he says how are THE DEAD raised up he is talking about the DEAD IN CHRIST. Not merely their dead bodies.

And when he says with what body do THEY come he is talking about the spirits of the dead who are coming alive. How will they be clothed?

The teaching of separate immortalities for the spirit and the body makes no sense to scripture.

They say the spirit is already immortal from birth. What? Where is that in scripture?

Then the body is given its immortality when Jesus comes as if that would be a big deal to people who had been in Heavenly bliss for thousands of years!

1 Cor. 15 is all about THE GOSPEL. THE GOOD NEWS.

What does Paul say in it? He never once mentions instant Heaven.

Wouldnt that be good news? But no mention.

Only pointing us to the second coming and the blast of the LAST TRUMP!

Pauls gospel as presented in 1 Cor. 15 is all about THE DEAD BEING MADE ALIVE.

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Friends come to the true gospel!

[mfblume]

Michael the Disciple, what was it you said again about Paul's reference to being absent from the body and with Christ in 2 Cor 5? I recall chatting about that with you - I think it was you -- and I simply cannot see any way around this that the soul does not sleep. One has to say Paul wished that could be the case, as though Paul was speaking of a non-reality. But I simply cannot accept that.

Thanks!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Michael the Disciple, what was it you said again about Paul's reference to being absent from the body and with Christ in 2 Cor 5? I recall chatting about that with you - I think it was you -- and I simply cannot see any way around this that the soul does not sleep. One has to say Paul wished that could be the case, as though Paul was speaking of a non-reality. But I simply cannot accept that.

Thanks!

See posts number 10 and 11 in this thread.

I think a careful reading of scripture will give overwhelming proof that the soul dies. If one allows death to keep the meaning ascribed it through scripture it becomes very evident this is so.

[easter]

There is only one Gospel and one truth.You are focused on the resurrection of the dead.You are saying the dead live not till the day of resurrection.
Michael do you believe that from the beginning of time every living being that has lived and died are still awaiting the great resurrection?
Are you saying to believe the dead in Christ are already in Paradise is a false belief?
Are you saying that the only hope a Christian has is to live and die,go down in the grave and sleep in a state of complete unawareness until the day of resurrection?

[shag]

MTD,


I am also looking forward to your interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:14-15.




14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael do you believe that from the beginning of time every living being that has lived and died are still awaiting the great resurrection?

No doubt about it. Allow me to prove it. Paul taught us this plainly.

14: That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim. 6:14-16

Of all men who ever lived ONLY YESHUA has immortality. Since Paul the Apostle who gave us the great majority on the sacred writings of the New Testament said this there should be no debate about it.

Think about it.

Paul knew about the thief on the cross. He knew about the saints who came to life after Christ's resurrection and went to the city and appeared to many.

He knew about the appearance of Moses and Elijah to Yeshua and the Apostles and without question heard the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Yet his understanding of all these things was different than the Churches teach today.

For a foundation of his beliefs he held what was taught in the Tanakh. He also was given many revelations as to the doctrine of Yeshua Messiah.

And yet his belief was that ONLY YESHUA out of billions that have lived and died currently possesses immortality!

Pay strict attention to his doctrine to the Corinthians:

20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:20-23

He told them EXACTLY the same thing he told Timothy.

Yeshua is the FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.

In Christ (Christians) shall all be MADE ALIVE. That means at this time they are NOT ALIVE. If they were they would have eternal life-immortality and would have no need to be MADE ALIVE.

Paul tells us the time when all in Christ shall be MADE ALIVE.

Afterward they that are Christs AT HIS COMING Verse 23

Then will the rest of those THAT SLEEP be MADE ALIVE.