Apostle, Elder, Deacon

[Amanah]

Looks to me like the three biblical leadership roles are

Apostle G652: those who are sent to begin new missionary works:
ἀπόστολος apóstolos, ap-os'-tol-os; from G649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):—apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Elders G4254: those appointed by the Apostles to oversee the church assemblies which were founded by Apostles:
Tit 1:5 - For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders G4245 in every city, as I had appointed thee.

Deacons G1246: those who assist the Elders:
διακονέω diakonéō, dee-ak-on-eh'-o; from G1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend, or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon:—(ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

Church councils for decision making would then consist of Apostles and Elders. Acts 15

Do we still have Apostles among us?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Looks to me like the three biblical leadership roles are

Apostle G652: those who are sent to begin new missionary works:
ἀπόστολος apóstolos, ap-os'-tol-os; from G649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):—apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Elders G4254: those appointed by the Apostles to oversee the church assemblies which were founded by Apostles:
Tit 1:5 - For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders G4245 in every city, as I had appointed thee.

Deacons G1246: those who assist the Elders:
διακονέω diakonéō, dee-ak-on-eh'-o; from G1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend, or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon:—(ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

Church councils for decision making would then consist of Apostles and Elders. Acts 15

Do we still have Apostles among us?

Sister Amanah,

I’m going to comment on your post. It’s probably not going to be the answer you would prefer but then again this is AFF, sometimes we disagree ( I know it’s rare).

What if we are determined to engage in theocratic apostasy? Because we have better ideas than the apostles and better, more efficient methods of saving the lost than God, right?

What if, instead of following the command, go ye, we instead say y’all come?

What if we decide that aallll of the five fold ministries are only contained in the role of the pastors? What if we also believe and teach that the pastor is the mediator between Christ and man? What if we eventually conclude that the Spiritual gifts are only for the pastor? What if we decide that the church is a gift to the pastor, instead of the pastor being the gift to the church?

What if the apostle has been absorbed (in our minds at least) into the role of pastor as well as the role of prophet, evangelist and teacher?

What if we have no faith to believe that there are any longer apostles? And what if because we don’t believe, or if we misbelieve, and are mistaught, and misled, and as a result, we are resigned to fulfillment of the scripture when Jesus healed the blind men:

[29] Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Is it possible that we are getting apostles according to our faith?

Or are we cessationists?

Did I just set out to answer your question and only ask a lot more questions?

I failed to answer your question, didn’t I?

Or did I?

[Amanah]

My question was not pertaining to the five fold ministry, or gifts of the Spirit.

My question is in regard to Apostolic succession, leadership and authority, organizational structure.

How do we make our church look like the church of the Apostles.
Apostles who started churches and ordained elders in every city.
Who solved disputes via a council of ordained elders.

Is the biblical model still valid today?

Or today is it acceptable for everyone to do what is right in their own eyes, interpreting the bible as best they can?

If the Apostle Paul walked into some of our churches today, would he approve?

I'm not asking because I think I have all the answers.
I'm asking to try to understand and make sense of what I see.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Amanah

........
Do we still have Apostles among us?

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever."

Ephesians 4:11-14
"And he gave some, Apostles, and some, Prophets; and some, Evangelists; and some, Pastors and Teachers.
v12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
v13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
v14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every window doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Short answer to your question whether we still have apostles is, Yes!

If there still is a church, if there are sinners in the world then we have the ministry of Christ. We have the 5 fold ministry still today operating in the roles as it should.

[Amanah]

I appreciate the responses.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I appreciate the responses.

No. The foundation has already been laid.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by diakonos

No. The foundation has already been laid.

Interesting.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by diakonos

No. The foundation has already been laid.

I think I know what you’re saying, just asking if you would clarify a little?

[coksiw]

Part 1:

Ephesians 4:11 mentions a list of works or functions the Lord gives the church at large: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. These ministries benefit local congregations but are to be understood as for the church at large, because not all congregations have them all, and some of those ministries operate even outside the congregation to form new congregations or to edify other congregations. As an example, beside the apostles, and Philip the evangelist, we see in Acts prophets traveling from one congregation to another to deliver their message (e.g., Acts 21:10, Acts 11:27-28).

Before they are mentioned, they are first referred to as Christ’s gift that came by grace. These are ministerial gifts to the saints in the church of God with the ultimate goal of “for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” These works are focused on delivering the Word of God.

The verse 11 starts by saying that He, Christ, gave those gifts, and then they are listed. Then, two clauses come after beginning with the word for, denoting purpose.

Some argue that the clauses are an enumeration of purposes, meaning Christ gave the ministerial gifts to some saints for the equipping of all the saints, and for the edifying of the body of Christ. Some others argue that the ministerial gifts are what equips some saints for the work of service, so that the result is the edifying of the body of Christ till we get to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Since the focus in the text is the edification of the body of Christ, I’m inclined to understand the text the second way: it is not the five fold ministries for some to equip the rest of the church saints for the work of service, but it is the five fold ministry gifts themselves what equip some saints so that through their work of service, the body of Christ is edified. Otherwise, if we understand it the first way, then as consequence “the work of service” must refers to administration tasks within the church, then the verse is saying that all those five folds ministries are to help saints serve, for example, the tables, among other things, and also edify the body. However, since becoming like Christ includes all those good works already, it seems odd to understand the first for clause as a statement with no such a relevance in building up the main point of the text.

From a local congregation standpoint, as we will see, apostles already set the doctrinal foundation given to us by their testimony written in the New Testament, evangelists are involved during the birth and initial development of the congregation, prophets, pastors and teachers are involved during the maturing of the congregation, and finally evangelists are involved again during the expansion of the congregation by forming daughter congregations.

How are they related to the offices of elders and deacons? Philip, who was a deacon (Acts 6:1-6), became an evangelist to Samaria (Acts 8:5-13), and many other places (Acts 8:40, Acts 21:8-9). Paul was listed among the group of teachers and prophets that were ministering the Lord in Antioch (Acts 13:1-3), and the Lord called him during the service for a work, and then the group laid hands on him and Barnabas, and sent them. You can assume that Paul was part of the leadership of the church in Antioch, and likely the eldership. Timothy was a young saint in the church in Lystra (Acts 16:1-3), and Paul took him in his trips, and asked him to do the work of an evangelist (2 Tim 4:5). Timothy was probably not an elder, but maybe a deacon or just a saint very involved somehow. Paul exhorts Timothy to teach the things he learned from him to faithful men so they teach others (2 Tim 2:2), must these men be elders or deacons? the only requirements listed is for them to be faithful, which is a wide enough requirement to include much more than the two offices. A congregation has elders, deacons and the rest of the saints. The five ministries can come from any of those. All it needs is a calling from the Lord, and the eldership of the church to recognize the calling.

The text lists prophets and pastors as separate works. If pastors are elders, then if you are a prophet you are not longer an elder? I believe that Paul was not listing five ministries but only four, and pastors and teachers is one: pastor-teachers. If Paul meant to refer to them as two distinct ministerial gifts, then it would be listed as “some evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers”, but instead it is listed as “some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers”, like if the last category is actually one. In this view, an elders may have the work of being a prophet or a pastor-teacher. Understanding pastor-teacher as one category makes the list not to intersect with the office of eldership, as this ministry does not necessarily equals to being an elder. The need of qualifying the term teacher with “pastor” in this passage may have to do with verse 14, where Paul explains that one of the goals of those ministerial gifts is to prevent falling into false doctrines.

In contrast with the four ministries view, some others see it as five ministries, and simply see pastors as a unique work of service in the list where you are a teacher but you also protect the congregation, which is what elders do, understanding that all elders must be able to teach and must protect, but not all elders will be actively teaching (1 Tim 5:17). In this other view, ruling elders that are actively teaching are pastors, and those that do not actively teach are simply ruling elders.

In conclusion, we should not focus so much on defining clearly in what five, or four, fold ministries category someone is, but rather in establishing elders and deacons in the church as Paul instructed Timothy and Titus to do, and let the Lord give the ministerial gifts. In this matter, our role is to be sensitive and acknowledge the calling and the burden placed on others to do certain works, and then we must help them succeed.

[coksiw]

Part 2

Regarding the ministries, no doubt we can see pastor-teachers, evangelists and prophets in our midst. However, are they modern-day apostles?

The Book of Acts starts with a clear statement of the requirements and mission of the twelves Apostles in Acts 1:21-22: must have seen the resurrected Jesus, because they would present themselves as eye witnesses of the resurrected savior, and would proclaim also the Gospel. They would proclaim what they saw and heard and this proclamation would create congregations of believers. Let’s look into verses about this aspect of their mission, which implies the requirement of having seen Him resurrected:

• The twelves looking for someone among the group that met the requirement: Acts 1:22, “one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
  
• Peter stating the importance of the mission of bearing witness of His resurrection and teachings: Acts 4:20, “For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”
  
• The Lord testifying with them with signs as they testified what they saw and heard: Acts 4:33, “And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus”
  
• Peter presenting himself as a witness of Jesus: Acts 10:39, 41, “we are witnesses of all things which He did”… “to witnesses chosen before by God, [even] to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.”
  
• Ananias speaking to Paul, the future apostle, after his vision, indicating his mission as a witness of his resurrection: Acts 22:15 “For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.”
  
• Luke speaking of the apostle’s mission as witnesses: Luke 1:2, “just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,”

Paul speaking of the message he preached to the Corinthians: 1 Cor 15:4-9, “and that He rose again the third day … and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, …. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles…” Notice that Jesus appeared not only to the twelves, but to other that later were considered by the church as apostles. This explains how the New Testament calls apostles others beside the twelves (see below for a discussion in this topic). Then, Paul presented himself also as the last apostle who also saw Jesus resurrected. This same Paul earlier had said in 1 Cor 9:1, ” Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?”, which clearly implies that for the Corinthian congregation having seen the Lord Jesus Christ resurrected is a requirement to be an apostle.

The Epistles use the term “apostle” also in a broader sense, as representative. For example, in 2 Cor 8:23, Titus is mentioned as an “apostle of the churches”, and also in Phil 2:25, Epaphroditus is mentioned as “your apostle” or representative of the Philippians church, who sent a gift to Paul. They are not apostles of Christ but _of the church.

There is one more case where the book of Acts calls Barnabas clearly an apostle (Acts 14:4, Acts 14:4,14) and presumably saw the risen Christ.

The term apostle was not lightly applied in the Epistles. For instance, in 2 Cor 1:1, and Col 1:1, Timothy is strikingly not referred as apostle by Paul, after Paul referred himself as an apostle, even though he was with Paul in his trips planting and training churches. The same can be said of Sosthenes in 1 Cor 1:1.

Apollos has been a case of debate. However, after seen so many clear statements in the Scripture of what an apostle requires, the scale favors the idea that Apollos saw the risen Christ or he is not an apostle. Since Paul was the last one known to have seen the risen Christ, and Apollos has not seen the risen Christ by the time Paul was already working as an apostle as implied from Acts 18:24-19:5, Apollos would not qualify as an apostle. However, some argue that the “us, the apostles,” in 1 Cor 4:6 includes Apollos. A possible explanation is that in fact, the “us” does not include Apollos but was talking in a general term of the apostles of Christ. In that sense, the verse 6 does not belong to the passage from 7 to 13 but to the passage from 1 to 5. The verse 6, is a clear closing statement of the initial statement “Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God” in that passage. In verse 7, Paul starts a new argument with a rhetorical question. This structuring makes more plausible the idea that “us, the apostles,” may in fact be referring to a group at large and not to Apollos and himself in particular.

Clement of Rome (died 99 AD), understood also that Apollos was not an apostle when he wrote to the Corinthians church. In 1 Clement 47:3-4, Clement speaks of Apollos as the man approved by the apostles but not himself being one: “Of a truth he [Paul] charged you in the Spirit concerning himself and Cephas and Apollos, because that even then ye had made parties. Yet that making of parties brought less sin upon you; for ye were partisans of Apostles that were highly reputed, and of a man approved in their sight.” (emphasis added).

It is evident at this point that there are virtually no modern-day apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps, apostles of churches, but not of Christ. Those that believe that we have modern day apostles do struggle with the biblical definition and wrestle with the Scriptures in their attempt to prove the use of the title, or to appear equal to them.

That leaves us with the evangelist as the work that is involved in planting new congregations and helping it get established, as Philips (Acts 21:8) did in Samaria (Acts 8:5) and in many other cities (Acts 8:40), and as Timothy (2 Tim 4:5) did in Ephesus for some months while Paul was out (1 Tim 1:3).

If evangelists are church planter, who are the speakers that we invite to our congregations? They can be teachers, prophets, or evangelists. For instance, Acts 15:32 has an example of visiting preachers, who were prophets, exhorting the congregation: “Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words.”