Free Seattle

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Obviously many here believe in the last days. Yet, what about the last days of America? We talk and discuss about the last days of the church, yet what if God is getting this nation ready to shut it down. What if the USA is to become a communist nation? What if thats the will of God, and the church stays?

Good topic for a new thread. Go for it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Obviously many here believe in the last days. Yet, what about the last days of America? We talk and discuss about the last days of the church, yet what if God is getting this nation ready to shut it down. What if the USA is to become a communist nation? What if thats the will of God, and the church stays?

Were those Europeans and Asians who resisted communism in their countries wrong or right for resisting?

Just wondering what your stance is on that.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Were those Europeans and Asians who resisted communism in their countries wrong or right for resisting?

Just wondering what your stance is on that.

If this country falls into complete communism, I will not be in favor of it, for one thing. I will also not conform to it.

I believe we can both agree on that, were we differ is how we resist.

When we go to the word, and we look at the examples of resistance in the Bible we see one thing in common, they relied on God for their salvation.

I read comments on here and see the news, I see how others view resistance. Resistance in the Bible isn’t the resistance of today. Daniel submitted to the king to be thrown into the den of lions, the 3 Hebrew children submitted to be tossed into the furnace, Moses submitted to the voice of Pharaoh until he said they could leave. Did they obey the king and disobey God, No, not at all. Yet, they didn’t rely on their spirit to give them deliverance, they waited on God, their salvation. We as the church do not match with what they bring against us, we wait on God. Do we submit to the worldly government and disobey God, no we dont.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have ALWAYS taught we are in the kingdom now as you put it "in Spirit". To me thats the "earnest" of the Spirit Paul wrote of.

Then you also say I have not totally realized there is a Spirit involvement in the Kingdom now.

Again something I have never taught or believed. I have always believed in the two aspects or phases of the Kingdom. The initial which is receiving the Holy Ghost as the earnest of the full inheritance. Living by the faith of Jesus. Doing his will.The second or final phase is at the resurrection when we actually gain immortality, eternal life. Then we enter the fullness of the Kingdom.

You think in spirit is not actual, when it is, though.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Just because YOU believe Rev. 19 to not be the 2nd coming does not make it so. I am the one mistaken?

You obvioulsy are not used to a well-rounded discussion. YOU are assuming the Rev 19 scene is the second coming. DOES THAT MAKE IT SO? I can say the same thing to you that you say to me. You are being circular in your arguments. You believe Rev 19 is the second coming ebcuase you believe it is the second coming. So, when I disagree, you say I am not right just because I said I am right. However, you did the VERY THING when you assumed it IS the second coming.

Rev. 19:11-16

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

I will take it for what it says.

Saying that you are taking it for what it says is a cop-out and proves nothing. Trinitarians read about Father, Son and Holy Ghost because they say they take it for what it says. But YOU DO NOT REALIZE that when you read Rev 19, you read it through a filter that the bible did not implaNT IN YOUR MIND. You INTERPRET it to mean the second coming. It does not say SECOND COMING anywhere in that chapter. So, why do you think it is? You think it is because you say it is. No grounds for that thought, though.

Those who know how to discuss don't say that kind of thing that you are saying, because they know that accusing someone of being wrong because they do not read it the way it is is nonsense. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. Do you read Jesus being a lamb with 7 eyes and horns the way it is written? By taking it for what it says means that you do not think it is symbolic at all. So, you must actually believe Jesus is a lamb now that he is in heaven, and has 7 eyes and horns to boot! Take it for what is says, you claim! YOU ARE NOT CONSISTENT. It's more complicated than simply saying to take it for what it says. IS IT SYMBOLIC or not?

You said:



Looks to me like you are the one mistaken. Reducing the most glorious event in history to us preaching the word.

Who said Rev 19 is what YOU claim it is for you to make this claim?

Move on? Ok. Everyone can see the difference in our understanding.

I think everyone can see your circular basis of argument.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The body is not involved in kingdom life NOW?

I never said that at all. I said they are not conducive to the kingdom. Why did Paul say HE KEEPS HIS BODY UNDER?

Rom. 12:1

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Our bodies must be acceptable to God...now.

Yes, BY SACRIFICE. SACRIFICE means we DENY the body. But what Paul said in 1 Cor 15 is that when the resurrection occurs WE WILL NOT KEEP OUR BODIES UNDER OR BE LIVING SACRIFICES. Sacrifices are things we really want, but let go. That will not be the case after resurrection.

Your very references prove my point!

They are only acceptable when living a life of SACRIFICE... DENIAL. Sin is in our bodies now. They will not contain sin after the resurrection. No more keeping them under. No more sacrifice.

Our bodies will be made IMMORTAL because they must be so in order to fully be involved in what God has for us physically in eternity future. If our bodies were thrust into what God has planned orf us in eternity future, we would PERISH instantly! SO, they need to be made immortal.

1 Thess. 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen! AND THAT MEANS DENIAL of the flesh. Do you think we have no need to deny the flesh now? Do you realize that denial of the flesh is required because SIN is in our flesh and will control us if we do not deny the flesh it's contained in?

[quote]
The body must be preserved blameless NOW the same as the spirit and soul.[/qote]

Exactly! That is because they are not in a state of being that DOES NOT REQUIRE EFFORT to keep them in denial of lusts and to render them blameless. THe resurrection automatically makes our bodies blameless. But WE HAVE TO PUT FORTH AN EFFORT for them to be blameless now.

Note what you said.

For that reason, it is a spiritual influence we have over our own spirits the spirit of the world and demonic spirits including satan.

It works the same way with the body NOW. We who have the Holy Spirit INFLUENCE the conduct of our body NOW.

Rom. 8:13

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Paul taught the body is involved in the kingdom right now the same as the Spirit. If the deeds of the BODY are mortified (killed) we will live. If we live after the flesh (deeds of the body) we will die.

In other words "not enter into the kingdom of God".

So our walk or life in the kingdom right now INCLUDES the whole person.

Of course it includes the whole person. But you totally missed what I meant. I meantthat flesh and body must be denied and disciplined, which will nto be required in an immortal sinless body.

[quote]And it is walked out ENTIRELY BY FAITH at the present time./quote]

And you completely misunderstand what BY FAITH means. BY FIATH does not mean NOT ACTUALLY. It means NOT OF WORKS. Your version of BY FAITH is legalistic.

Romans 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

So the "stage" or "phase" of the Kingdon NOW is as written is the "earnest" stage.

It is lived IN HOPE AND FAITH. What is the HOPE AND FAITH?

Is it not in the actual coming of Jesus Christ and entering his heavenly kingdom?

FAITH AND HOPE here do not mean what you think. The future phase of the kingdom is indeed greater, and I never said it was not. But you think it is not even here now because you think it is not actual. You think everything about kingdom now is not in reality. The kingdom is REAL right now. IT IS ACTUAL.

2 Tim. 4:1

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

After then it wont be just hope or faith anymore but the ACTUAL, LITERAL Kingdom.

There it is again! You said you agree we are in the kingdom in SPIRIT, but then you contradict yourself by saying it is not ACTUALLY HERE NOW. How can we be in it iin SPIRIT if it is not actual riught now? We Hope for the greater phase of the kingdom, not for the actualilty of the kingdom as though it is not actual now. If it was not actual now, then we could not be in it in spirit.

Your problem is that you do not even understand the definition of words. You completely blaspheme the meaning of BY FAITH to mean NOT ACTUAL, when by faith means NOT OF WORKS. And that's only the tip of the iceberg of your misunderstanding of terms used in scripture. You also do not understand the kingdom is actually here but only our spirits are involved now, while our bodies must be denied their lusts and disciplined, which will not be the case after the resurrection.

Try again.

[Michael The Disciple]

You obvioulsy are not used to a well-rounded discussion.

What discussion? What do the things you are saying have to do with the discussion of FREE SEATTLE?

The topic of this thread?

Then again Paul said to reject a heretic after the first and second admonition. The heretic after rejecting the truth will always want to keep an argument going.

You said all of Revelation 19 is fulfilled. Your preterist friends will agree with you. I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What discussion? What do the things you are saying have to do with the discussion of FREE SEATTLE?

The topic of this thread?

Then again Paul said to reject a heretic after the first and second admonition. The heretic after rejecting the truth will always want to keep an argument going.

You said all of Revelation 19 is fulfilled. Your preterist friends will agree with you. I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future.

I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future

Not trying to get into Bro. Blames and your discussion.

However, just remember many apostolics/ UPC and other denominations had to change their stance from time to time. Because the “who” and “what”, “this” or “that” in Revelation didn’t pan out. Their doctrine is like shifting sands.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future

Not trying to get into Bro. Blames and your discussion.

However, just remember many apostolics/ UPC and other denominations had to change their stance from time to time. Because the “who” and “what”, “this” or “that” in Revelation didn’t pan out. Their doctrine is like shifting sands.

I was just pointing out to Mike that most Apostolics like myself have heard the total "spiritualizing" of Revelation and are not biting. Sure there are plenty of symbols in Revelation but if you symbolize far enough you can do away with the Christian faith entirely.

But as to changing I have changed my beliefs probably more than anyone here. If I was proven wrong by the word I had to change. I see very few changing their beliefs in Apostolic circles. Sadly the only things that seem to change are dress codes and even then rarely.

My approach to end times is that I dont understand every detail as the preterists demand. But the high points are the high points.

The coming of Jesus is a long way from believing that his coming with the armies of heaven to destroy the beast, false prophet, all the armies of the world and marry a bride means that you and I preach the word.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I and most other Apostolics believe it to be future

Not trying to get into Bro. Blames and your discussion.

However, just remember many apostolics/ UPC and other denominations had to change their stance from time to time. Because the “who” and “what”, “this” or “that” in Revelation didn’t pan out. Their doctrine is like shifting sands.

Bro, Eschatology (as well as many other items) in the "Apostolic" ranks is a total hodgepodge of ideas and hypothesis. Yet, I am experiencing a time where Pentecostals not only don't believe in spiritual things, but divine healing or protection. A well known local UPCI church here in Fort Lauderdale just found out one of their saints has the COVID. So, what did they do? They sent everyone home for two weeks, locked their doors, and resumed live streaming...again. Free Seattle? What eschatology is right? My lands, these people can't even run with the footmen, God help them when they have to deal with the horsemen. This whole COVID thing was the tide going out for Pentecost (really all Christendom) the tide has gone out and they have been all swimming naked.

Resume the debate.

Maybe you all can help Mike find Satan's space ship