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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #371  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:24 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Cain: already addressed.

Tamar: funny you forgot to mention how Judah demanded she suffer the penalty of Leviticus 21:9.

Conclusion: your grasping at non inflatable straws is a clear sign of drowning. So sorry. Tried to throw you a life preserver but it was apparently too kosher for ya.

Translation: This thread has run its course. Long ago.
Thanks for correcting that oversight. So, was she burnt with fire? And was she the daughter of a priest? The answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second is, as you like to say ”not likely”. So, further evidence that Judah was not following what you claim to be God’s divine law.

And as for it being funny that I forgot that Judah demanded that Tamar be burned, it is indeed ironic that you call me on leaving out part of the story, and then you do the same thing that you accuse me of.

So to be clear. Judah said burn her. Before he said don’t burn her. Because he admitted that she was more righteous than he was. But IF the Mosaic law were in effect as you claim, Judah himself must die as well, because he “went into” his daughter in law, albeit unbeknownst to him, which was punishable by death, under the law that you love so well.

Just one more thing Esaias . . .

Under the law a man was required to father children with the wife of his deceased brother if he had no sons.

And you made a statement to the effect that if a law was not specifically repealed in the New Testament that it stands today. Am I correct? So, to my knowledge this law has not been repealed.

So, does it stand?

How far do we go with this?

When have we done enough?
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  #372  
Old 04-19-2019, 03:53 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

The context of what is written in Galatians Chapter 4 extends from Galatians chapter 3 when the Jews, wherein Paul included himself, were under bondage of law Paul called it a "bondage" to be under Old Testament Law in Gal 4:3.

Gal 4:3 KJV Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

So, it is established in Paul’s writing that Old Covenant Law was a form of bondage, albeit a necessary one. But he also calls Law the "elements of the world."

Paul said when Christ came and he and other Jews got saved, they were removed from that bondage.

But before Christ came, the Gentiles were under a different form of bondage. Paganism.
Law commanded Israel to keep days and months and years holy. Sabbath days, jubilee years, sabbath years, sabbath MONTHS, with the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth ordained as feast months. That was part and parcel with Old Covenant Law.

So, while pagans were in bondage to heathen gods, with no precepts even mentioned in the context of Paul’s writings, Israel was in bondage under Law. Paul spoke of two forms of bondage: Paganism and Old Covenant Law.

Gal 4:3 KJV Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:8 KJV Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Notice that Paul calls the Law the "elements of the world" in verse 3. He referred to himself and other saved Jews as “we.” When he used the term, “ye” he was referring to saved Gentiles in the Galatian church.

We know Law is the “elements of the world,” because the entire context notes this:

Gal 4:3-5 KJV Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: (4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

We must note the pronoun "WE". Paul is contrasting Jews from gentiles and by saying "we" he refers to Jews. Not gentiles.

And then he changes pronouns to talk about his gentile readers:

Gal 4:6-7 KJV And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

So, we have both saved Jews and saved Gentiles. Formerly Jews were under the bondage to the "elements of the world," or Mosaic Law. Gentiles were in bondage to paganism.
And Jews were Heirs when they were in bondage, though. They were planned by God in progressive steps to come to the New Covenant through that Law, and be delivered from the bondage of the schoolmaster of Law and "graduate" into the New Covenant.

While those Jews under law were heirs, the gentiles under paganism were servants. And verse 8 says they were in “service” to non-existent gods.

But when the heirs got saved under Grace, they came into their inheritance. The gentiles believers who used to be under paganism, came under law before they accepted the New Testament gospel.

When the gentiles were saved from paganism into the law, and then into the same grace the born again Jews came into, Paul said they, too, became heirs by adoption, seeing as the Jews were children as heirs, whereas servants are not in the family. But the wonderful change of new birth adopted the formerly pagan gentiles into the family making them sons, and that in turn made them heirs!

Gal 4:7 KJV Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Then we get to the controversial verse where some think Paul said these converted Gentiles went back under paganism and kept pagan days and celebrations, rather than what I claim he meant by them going under Old Covenant sabbath days and feasts.

Gal 4:9 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Because these gentiles were under law before they cam to Christ and after they left paganism, they were reverting back to law again.

Some say they were trading a paganistic bondage for a law covenant bondage.

Some believers claim these readers turned back to paganism and its pagan days. I think that is a misreading of the verse. Paul indeed said they turned "again" to "weak and beggarly elements." But while some may feel that means they were in weak and beggarly elements under paganism, were taken out, only to return to them again, that is not what Paul meant.

Paul never referred to paganism by using the term "elements". Elements are basic building blocks. The elements on the periodic scale are building blocks for all matter that exists. They are true and rightful building blocks. They are not false nor imaginary. They are rightful God-intended basics and fundamentals of all that exists when all that exists is broken down. Everything that exists is based upon these elements. That’s why they’re called elements.

The Greek says it like this:

stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - translated in the KJV as “element, principle, rudiment.”

Something basal and fundamental is something that stands after all that is comprised of various levels of matter can be broken down to its basic constituency. That's why I compare Law to the New Covenant as ABC building blocks that "elementary” school children play with to familiarize them with letters of the alphabet and words, and sentences and finally full-blown books they can read and write.

Pagan items are not elements. They’re not intended by God to be anything that is elemental to teach anyone anything about what they are meant to later come into as mature adults in their understanding of His will. But Paul distinctly called Law the elements of the world for this very reason. That's the role of schoolmaster that the Law played. Law said keep this sabbath day, and that day was an elemental core piece of what God wanted Israel to become familiar with in order for them to later graduate and take that element of sabbath day and realize it's purpose by coming into the spiritual counterpart of that physical ordinance to physically not touch or not do.

But like the graduate is now to move on and away from ABC building blocks and other elements, and come into practical use for the Kingdom of God that the ABC blocks prepared him for, and actually write and read, etc, God wanted Israel to leave sabbath days and take the physical lessons they physically fulfilled and apply them spiritually and enter the rest that Hebrews 4 speaks about, which is trust in God cooperating with us in everyday life over battles and struggles, and resting from this self doing everything work that does not allow God to work instead.

The same Greek word is translated Rudiments and principles in the KJV. Are pagan rites and rituals principle issues intended for a subsequent graduation into higher understanding? Are pagan rites and activities rudiments or foundational pieces that form the more extended and complex pattern God desires us to enter into? Of course not! But that is why the term elements and rudiments and principles are used to describe Law. They are foundational to what God wants us to know and believe and understand.

Law is foundational to our more complex understanding we find and discover in the New Covenant. Law is not like paganism, where paganism must be abandoned lock, stock and barrel, and recognized as being totally useless as far as God is concerned. Law is what made the Israelites heirs before Christ came, while the gentiles pagans were mere servants. The difference between being an heir and a servant is that while both are in bondage, the heir is in a useful bondage that is comprised of the elements and rudiments of what he shall graduate into and actually benefit the heir into what he graduates. Rudiments are crude basic forms of greater and more elaborate things.

Israel learned basic building block truths under law. Pagans had absolutely nothing in their paganism they could take and apply as foundations for more complex patterns of truth in Christianity. Pagans had to wholly abandon every notion learned in paganism.

So, when Paul said heirs were in bondage to elements of the world, pointing to Law, and then said the converted former pagans came into the church, but turned again to weak and beggarly elements, he did not refer to paganism. Paganism cannot be elemental to anything like Law was elemental to God's new covenant understanding.

We think of "elements" as mere "things", period. We either forget or don't realize the true meaning of the word actually refers to necessary and useful things in the sense that they are required for us to understand the more complex understanding that derives from those elements, and without which we cannot understand those more complex realities with which God intends for us to be engaged in the New Covenant.

There was nothing necessary in paganism whatsoever. So paganism has no elements or rudiments or principles we must understand to live in the New Covenant.

So, when Paul used the word "turn back", he didn’t mean they reverted to pagansim. They turned back to something that was in common to both Israel under Law and Gentiles under idols. And that commonality was bondage! That's one thing both peoples were under. Only the bondage of Law made Israelites heirs, though, seeing they would use their principles, whereas the bondage of paganism was not useful. Those under paganism were mere servants since they could not use those items in the new covenant like the Jews can use "elements" of Law.

Law contains foreshadows of all that is in the New Covenant. The passover lamb is the ABC building block of realizing Christ died in sacrifice so his shed blood, indicating his death into which we get baptized, saves us from the death we deserve due to our sin. So the passover lamb was an element or principle of what we must come into in our understanding in the New Covenant in order to be saved!

Gentiles can learn from Law, and it's a huge fad now for believers to get involved in movements like the Messianic movement for them to learn what they missed out on while the Israelites were in bondage to that schoolmaster before Christ came. The only mistake many of them are making is that they think the ABC block s must continue to be used, like you some Christians feel Sabbath should be maintained. And they demand feasts and holy days from law even today! They need to learn the message of Gal 4 as well!

Gal 4:9 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Elements can never refer to paganism once we understand what the meaning of the term conveys. Furthermore, Paul did not refer distinctly to pagansim when he spoke the term "elements" before Gal 4:9 as he distinctly referred to Law using that term in verse 3.

Verse 3 is the antecedent for the term ELEMENTS in verse 9.
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