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Old 04-17-2019, 07:27 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Steve,Are you aware of Ivan Panins Numeric New Testament? If so what is your opinion?
No fan of Panin. He actually molded his text to match his numerics, a circularity that indicates the worthlessness of his numerical nonsense.
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Old 04-19-2019, 09:13 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
No fan of Panin. He actually molded his text to match his numerics, a circularity that indicates the worthlessness of his numerical nonsense.
ALL pastors are hindrances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.~Steve Epley.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:34 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Ivan Panin numeric nonsense

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
In 2015 on Facebook, I put in a series of short posts on Facebook, when asked about Chuck Missler and Ivan Panin. The urls below are still good today:

King James Bible Debate

Have you ever heard of Chuck Missler? ... Please watch entirety before giving your thoughts on this video.... (no longer available at that spot, it was from khouse.org named "Westcott & Hort versions VS King James Version - Dr. Church Missler" I have the current url on the PureBibleForum post with the url at bottom, or you can put the name in search.)

Here are the five posts I put in:


Missler has a very inconsistent Bible position, so anybody wading through his body of work will end up confused. Plus he is quite inaccurate factually, like when he says near the beginning that 5,556 mss were available to the learned men oh the AV. Shoddy scholarship is a discredit to our defense of God's pure word.


To make it worse, Missler is relying on totally bogus arguments from Ivan Panin. The couple of minutes on Westcott and Hort were very lean, and not as bad.


There is so much stuff on Panin's methodology. Why don't you do a bit of web research? I'll give you a couple of points. At times he actually used the Westcott-Hort text in his calculations. At other times he made up his own text so that the numbers would work. There was rigging everywhere, nothing was rigorous, his work is worse than worthless. Even in the section above, there were vague references to a Greek text, yet Missler did not even tell you which one, which would be absolutely necessary, since every text has variants. Will Kinney has a bit on this as well.

For one example, here is Brendan McKay:

Ivan Panin and the Gospel of Mark


Since we have gone over this numerous times, and it is a minor issue, I have not written a paper on it. A lot depends on how savvy you are on math and statistical manipulations. The fact that Panin designs his own text to fit the theory should tell you enough. Chuck Missler seems to be the only popular person who is a mess on this today.


... I wrote on this a KJBD defense forum post in 2004 with the title:

[KJBD] Ivan Panin, Made-to-Order Versions, and the Numeric Deception
(likely requires membership, text below)

Here is the simplest quote that shows how Ivan Panin's (1880-1942) system was designed to work with his own text, that was made to support his system.


Some Problems With Bible Codes
Jack Robinson - The Testimony - March, 2000

Bible Code II (Ivan Panin and Biblical Numerics) (The Readings - March 1999)
Jack Robinson

Most of these features are difficult to check. The number of words refers to the Greek words; classification into vocabulary, forms and figures requires a knowledge of Greek; and compilations of these data are subject to the investigator's discretion. Thus the ordinary reader cannot verify any but the simplest feature of the reported pattern of sevens. Moreover, Panin warns the reader that there are many pitfalls into which the inexperienced handler of Bible numerics is likely to fall; in particular, to verify any but the simplest of features requires the authentic Greek text that Panin himself published in 1934 and titled The Numeric Greek New Testament.


Panin then published a translation of his rigged hybrid Greek text, which he called the Numeric English New Testament.


Now I have this mirrored on the PBF blog-forum:

Pure Bible Forum
Ivan Panin Numeric Nonsense

Steven Avery

Last edited by Steven Avery; 04-19-2019 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 03:53 AM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Steve Avery is correct: the Numeric NT doesn't add up.
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Old 04-20-2019, 04:05 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

I like to read various translations (NIV, NLT, ESV, NKJV) and compare them against the KJV (which I was taught is the gold standard).
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