Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #111  
Old 08-30-2019, 04:47 PM
Scott Pitta's Avatar
Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
Posts: 2,941
Re: One In The Greek

Well, they are not chickens

They are one. Even if "one" is spelled 3 different ways in Koine Greek.

Variation in spelling does not mean variation in meaning.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 08-30-2019, 05:11 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
mindreading the New Testament authors

If the grammar is sound, it is very questionable to mind-read the Gospel writer ... "he did this because he was thinking of a person, or thing, or whatever". Grammar rarely works on subtle mental machinations. And I think Scott and I fully agree on that aspect. Scott as a translator, me as a common sense type of guy.

And I really do not care what these "New Testament Greek" experts think about choosing neuter or masculine in cases where both may be acceptable grammatically. Prove it.

The ones I would want to hear from are fluent Greek speakers, who may also be familiar with classical and koine Greek.

Ironically, Steven Anderson did a fairly good job recently demonstrating the truth that the differences between modern Greek and koine Greek have been vastly overstated. He went to Cyprus and handed young Greek speakers the Greek New Testament (TR). They were very comfortable with the text, they were not struggling over subtleties.

Dump the New Testament Greek grammarians.

Laugh at the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools, the classic example of seminarian style incompetence, silly nonsense inspired by doctrinal bias. (Even if many oneness folks may be included among the blunderama crew.) Foolish Christians pushed that mostly because they were concerned about the attacks on "God was manifest in the flesh" and the heavenly witnesses. Thus, they hoped to change the pure Bible and come up with new "Jesus is God" verses in a type of tit-for-tat Bible verse exchange.

Nonsense. The Bible should inform our doctrine, we do not change the Bible to match our doctrine.

To be fair, occasionally a New Testament scholar will point out that the Grammatical Emperor has no wardrobe. Stanley Porter eviscerating the Daniel Wallace nonsense is a good example.

Notice all the dual addressing verses in the Bible. Virtually non-existent today, whatever the Christology.

Also very interesting is what happens when the 1881 Westcott-Hort recension text has bald, grating solecisms. 1 Timothy 3:16 and the earthly witnesses without the heavenly are two examples. The grammarians jump through hoops to try to justify the errant text. One of the funniest ones is claiming that 1 Timothy 3:16 is placing in the middle of a hymn. Often, critical text apologetics is simply a cheap con.

For commentaries, you generally will get a much higher quality analysis in the 1600s and 1700s. (John Owen, Matthew Henry, John Gill, et al.)

Last edited by Steven Avery; 08-30-2019 at 05:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 08-30-2019, 09:37 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Does "I and the Father are heis" mean the same thing as "I and the Father are hen"?
Wouldn't one be grammatically correct and the other be incorrect? Like saying "I and the Father are one" vs "I and the Father is one"?
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:36 PM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Wuerst is devotional and not academic. I have never seen his name or literature in the scholarly literature. Thayer is hopelessly outdated. Vincent fall into the same category. Outdated commentaries are equally unimpressive. These are names I have never seen in the scholarly literature typified at SBL and NTS.

I did read the article on the link. But I do not see any translation data, but lots of theology.

There was no data showing why heis should be translated in any other way than "one". Nor do the major translators show variation in how heis is translated.

Yes, 2 years of college level Koine Greek plus 30 years of translating are under my belt.

My focus is on translation, not theology.

For what it is worth, LXX Greek grammar is not exactly the same as Koine Greek grammar. I am not trained in LXX Greek.
*Apparently your “two years of Greek” is quite outdated. It’s simply first year Greek to learn that masculine denotes personhood when applied to a personal being. Thayer is very outdated & I virtually never appeal to him, however, many of his grammatical points remain unchallenged by the papyri findings of Grenfell & Hunt (Oxyrhincus, Egypt, ca. 1890’s). Robertson (cf. his Word Pictures at John 10.30), Wallace, etc. ad nauseum all afford that the masculine singular denotes a single person...and yet they were/are Trinitarians due their theological commitments.

*Still not at my laptop, but all anyone has to do is conduct a study of how the neuter singular “hen” is used versus how the masculine singular “heis” is used. In fact, I specifically referenced Romans 12.5 earlier - where Paul uses the neuter “hen” when referencing “many,” but then, in the very next clause, switches to the masculine “heis” when describing one individual. And, I could literally sit here until midnight marshaling quote after quote after quote that speaks to this end. Honestly, this is simply elementary Greek.

*If you supposedly major is “translation” then you, of all people, should know that if every mood, tense, voice, adjective, gender, syntactical nuance, etc. were elongated out into translation, you wouldn’t merely have one book to carry around...you’d have volumes of books. This is why it’s incumbent upon the minister to take the time to learn the original languages of the Bible. Sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board after what I have seen you post on this forum. You just have taken Greek a very long time ago is all I can figure.

*Carry on.

__________________
Rare is the Individual Found who is Genuinely in Search of Biblical Truth.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:37 PM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
However, we do not want to use poor translations as doctrinal arguments.

In this case, Scott's points are generally accurate, putting aside his reliance on questionable modern and quasi-modern sources.

Roger, I have not looked through yet your back-and-forth with Dalcour.

The following from Scott was correct:
*K Steve—if you say so .
__________________
Rare is the Individual Found who is Genuinely in Search of Biblical Truth.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:41 PM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I could have missed it, but I don't think anyone has said the issue is how to literally translate the word, but how to understand the translation. As you have noted, the literal translation should be "one." The question is what does "one" mean, just as in English "one" has more than one meaning. Are we of one mind on this point? :-)

I too made a first pass through BDAG (as best I could). It seems we need to focus on the sections of the article that involve one in reference to more than one person/thing, so sections 1.a and 1.b, especially the latter, which is where BDAG places John 10.30. So do you see any patterns regarding how the genders are used in these scenarios?
*Exactly. Though I hate to agree w. you on something (), these are exactly the points I have been trying to make (though not so well from my iPad).

*If gender was a moot issue as it seems Scott is saying, then the Trinitarian apologists would not be making a major issue over it at John 10.30.
__________________
Rare is the Individual Found who is Genuinely in Search of Biblical Truth.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:49 PM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Does "I and the Father are heis" mean the same thing as "I and the Father are hen"?
*Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner !

*Exactly the point that needs to be pondered.

*I simply cannot believe that folks claiming to have an emphasis in Greek grammar & translation are *seriously* arguing that there’s no difference between the masculine and neuter. This would be howled out of a classroom in serious academia. I’m tempted to think Scott is just chain-yanking...but I don’t think he is.

*AFF strikes once again.
__________________
Rare is the Individual Found who is Genuinely in Search of Biblical Truth.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 08-30-2019, 11:34 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner !

*Exactly the point that needs to be pondered.

*I simply cannot believe that folks claiming to have an emphasis in Greek grammar & translation are *seriously* arguing that there’s no difference between the masculine and neuter. This would be howled out of a classroom in serious academia. I’m tempted to think Scott is just chain-yanking...but I don’t think he is.

*AFF strikes once again.
Is gender of the adjective controlled by the gender of noun it modifies? Or by something else? Same as with pronoun?

In the I and my Father are one statement, is one an adjective, pronoun/noun, or something else? (In Greek, I mean.)

If "Lydia is one ____", does one take the gender of Lydia? Or of the _____? Or would it be masculine, to denote personhood?

Just trying help the non Greek students here ask a few of the right basic questions.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf


Last edited by Esaias; 08-30-2019 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 08-31-2019, 12:46 AM
diakonos's Avatar
diakonos diakonos is online now
New User


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Northwest Zion
Posts: 3,090
Re: One In The Greek

Good questions
__________________
“Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos.”
-Homer Simpson
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 08-31-2019, 02:11 AM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Is gender of the adjective controlled by the gender of noun it modifies? Or by something else? Same as with pronoun?

In the I and my Father are one statement, is one an adjective, pronoun/noun, or something else? (In Greek, I mean.)

If "Lydia is one ____", does one take the gender of Lydia? Or of the _____? Or would it be masculine, to denote personhood?

Just trying help the non Greek students here ask a few of the right basic questions.
*In John 10.30 “one” (neut. hen) is a pronominal adjective functioning predicatively of a compound subject—“I and the Father.” Robertson, Wallace, etc. affirm that if one person were being described by Christ the masculine singular “heis” would have been employed. This is where it’s lights out for Trinitarianism inasmuch as Jesus *DID* employ the masculine singular “heis” is explicating “the most important commandment” in Mark 12.29. Indeed, as pointed out numerous times in this thread (and in the links provided), the masculine singular heis is employed ca. 100x’s in the GNT—and in no instance does it describe more than one person (neither contextually nor grammatically).

*Generally the adjective matches in case, gender and number to the head noun it modifies. As all things Greek (& Hebrew), there are exceptions to this general rule governed by varying contexts, genres (e.g., poetic, hymns), etc.

*Perhaps this interlinear breakdown of Romans 12.5 will better illustrate what I’m attempting to convey: https://biblehub.com/text/romans/12-5.htm

*Note the switch from the neuter “hen” (when describing “many”) to the masculine “heis” when describing an “individual.”

*Regardless, the neuter does not pose a problem for Oneness advocates in John 10.30 (contrary to the claims of Trinitarian academics) as noted in the articles linked earlier. Good questions Bro. God bless.
__________________
Rare is the Individual Found who is Genuinely in Search of Biblical Truth.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help With The Greek Michael The Disciple Fellowship Hall 96 06-15-2019 01:24 PM
The Greek Default n david The Newsroom 17 07-18-2015 07:00 AM
A Hebrew or Greek NT? bbyrd009 Deep Waters 57 05-25-2012 12:01 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.