DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8

He has a beard? And...............

Everyone knows if you have a beard you going to bust hell wide open.

The same "everyone" don't know or ignore that Jesus had a beard.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Justin

Do you have a date for this?

That picture is on page 89 of a biography of Clyde Haney written by his wife Olive (Gray) Haney. The girl in the picture is Olive and the boy is her brother David Gray. The title under the picture says, "Passport picture. Frank and Mary Gray with David and Olive returning to states (1919)"

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8

You denounce the Apostolic doctrine....so give me scriptures to refute it!
Surely you are not that slow.

Whoa, are you always this rude?

You start off with a false presupposition. Care to start over?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by DAII

For the record.

Wow. I have this book. Just haven't finished it. Thanks for the quote.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8

I'm not disputing that the picture is "authentic". But....this "proves" what?

He has a beard? And...............

It proves that our forebears in the Apostolic Faith did not have the "holiness standards" that exist in some churches today and that the attempt by some to enforce some sort of ad hoc "Apostolic Identity" based upon those "standards" has no historical basis in fact.

In other words, we're all being asked to accept some things that were just invented in the post WW2 years at the cost of "Apostolic Unity" and at the cost of the Scripture.

[John Atkinson]

My only observation is this:
If someone is in the UPCI and they don't like it they can vote with their feet.

If someone is not in the UPCI what does it matter? If they want to do the whole "Apostolic Identity" thing ... so what? It is their org, so they can. Doesn't bother me none as I am not in the club.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

My only observation is this:
If someone is in the UPCI and they don't like it they can vote with their feet.

If someone is not in the UPCI what does it matter? If they want to do the whole "Apostolic Identity" thing ... so what? It is their org, so they can. Doesn't bother me none as I am not in the club.

My own family members and my children are deeply influenced by what the UPC says and does. A couple of years back I brought up the whole "Holy Magic Hair" thing with my daughter.

"What's that?" she asked.

I explained the gist of the idea behind HMH and she shocked me by responding, "But that's what I believe."

No way! But, there it was in my own home. It is important that we stand up to the historical revisionism, the false doctrine and the "gospel" that is often preached that excludes Calvary and the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

My daughter was used by "headquarters" recently in one of their "Apostolic Identity" promotions. I was troubled by the idea going in. It was part of the Youth Dept's scheme to overcome the silly accusations that followed in the wake of the Youth Congress in 2007.

Can you imagine? With my track record, my kids are still the paradigm of "Apostolic Identity?"

I don't really have a problem with it and my daughter had a great time. But I am still going to add my two cent's worth and reach out to the org to maintain some semblance of balance.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Brother David

My own family members and my children are deeply influenced by what the UPC says and does. A couple of years back I brought up the whole "Holy Magic Hair" thing with my daughter.

"What's that?" she asked.

I explained the gist of the idea behind HMH and she shocked me by responding, "But that's what I believe."

No way! But, there it was in my own home. It is important that we stand up to the historical revisionism, the false doctrine and the "gospel" that is often preached that excludes Calvary and the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

My daughter was used by "headquarters" recently in one of their "Apostolic Identity" promotions. I was troubled by the idea going in. It was part of the Youth Dept's scheme to overcome the silly accusations that followed in the wake of the Youth Congress in 2007.

Can you imagine? With my track record, my kids are still the paradigm of "Apostolic Identity?"

I don't really have a problem with it and my daughter had a great time. But I am still going to add my two cent's worth and reach out to the org to maintain some semblance of balance.

I have to admit, it IS a bit hard to believe. LOL

Do your family members simply go too far back in UPC tradition? Or is it the case of a Svengali pastor?

[freeatlast]

Everytime I see "AI" in refering to "apostolic indentity" it makes me think of a title to a movie that was called AI..........

.......... Artificial Inteligence

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I have to admit, it IS a bit hard to believe. LOL

Do your family members simply go too far back in UPC tradition? Or is it the case of a Svengali pastor?

Yes to the first and no to the second. All of us have always had the attitude that we wanted to be humble and under proper submission to Scriptural authority.

But some have been like water when it came to finding a path through life - the course of least resistance. They have no certain principles based upon the Bible - just a desire to get along with the group. This opens them up to a lot of manipulation.

One example is my father-in-law. He and I walked into the General Conference business meeting in 1992 with him laughing off the whole idea that the Westberg Resolution would even be allowed to come to a vote. He is and at the time was an ardent "Three Stepper" but his zeal was as one of the "converted" due to his PCI and PAW family background.

After the "99%" misstatement was made from the platform he jumped right up and instantly became a supporter of the Resolution. I have to admit that at the time I too was swayed to go along with it. That's just how we were. If it's "official" from our elders then we will graciously submit.

In time however, I began to see how this "attitude of servitude" was being exploited by the more extreme elements within the movement, even for very base purposes at times.

We are not doing the fellowship nor the church any service by always ducking our heads and never asking the tough questions. For the Oneness movement to thrive we need to have a body of powerful individuals. The current status quo in so many areas where we see leadership wracked by poor esteem issues which they then take out on a silent and submissive flock will only lead to our demise.