Resurrection in Romans 8:10-11 not from the grave

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I always heard it said for many years as a young Christian that the resurrection in the following verses is about the day the trumpet sounds and all bodies of the saints in the graves rise to meet the Lord. But upon careful reading, I now see that's not what it's about at all.

Romans 8:10-11 KJV And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We read the body is dead if Christ is in us. Is Christ in you? The body is then dead.

Now, how does that lead up to the resurrection from the grave if the next verse is speaking about the resurrection from the grave? The idea verse 11 is speaking of physical resurrection from the grave would demand AFTER the body is dead and Jesus comes our bodies will rise. But verse 10 says our bodies are already dead!

If you read before chapter 8 you will lfind Paul speaking about that very thing.

Romans 7:5-11 KJV For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Notice Paul taught that HE DIED when the law came along and demanded he commit works of righteousness. And the style in which Paul wrote reveals more about this.

He starts off saying without the law sin was dead. So when he had no law, sin was dead.

But things flip-flipped when law came.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

So things reversed. He was alive without the law and sin was dead. But when the law came and he was commanded to obey it, sin was no longer dead, but REVIVED! And instead of sin being dead, PAUL DIED! He was alive without the law at one point, and sin was dead. But when LAW came, sin revived and Paul died.

What is the nature of his death in this context? It is what Romans 8:10-11 is based on. It is being slain spiritually. His entire life for God DIED. That's the sense. As far as being alive for God and successfully serving Him, PAUL DIED. He failed.

And it is FROM THAT STANDPOINT that Romans 8:10 says if Christ is in us the BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN.

Now, one might claim that can't be so, for having Christ in us should solve everything. Not necessarily. Paul taught quite plainly Romans 6 that we must KNOW some things in order to succeed in serving God without sinning. We have to understands the purpose of the Spirit being more than making us talk in tongues when we get it!

We have to KNOW that we die with Christ when we are baptized. Why? So the resurrection of Jesus can occur in us and we begin to walk in newness of life. THIS IS WHERE ROMANS 8:10-11 COMES INTO FOCUS. The resurrection in Romans 6:4-5 is NOT speaking of the body coming out of the grave. It is speaking about RIGHT NOW living a SUCCESSFUL Christian life over sin. How do I know? Read these verses that are speaking about the here and now.

Romans 6:8-12 KJV Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

See what it says after we are told we must consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, like Jesus? It says we should not let sin rule in our mortal bodies any more! Because we are dead with Christ, and also alive with Him through union to Him in our baptisms, making His history become ours, WE SHOULD NOT LET SIN RULE IN OUR MORTAL BODIES.

And that use of the term "MORTAL BODY" is repeated in Romans 8:10-11. The same Spireit that raised up Christ from the dead will QUICKEN OUR MORTAL BODIES.

Now if you still think resurrection form the grave is in view here, read verse 12 in Romans 8.

Romans 8:11-12 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Why would not being a debtor to the flesh, to live after the flesh, be the conclusion we read after being informed the Spirit will quicken our MORTAL BODIES?

Is it saying, don't let sin rule because the rapture is going to take place one day? No. What has the rapture got to do with my opportunity to not commit sin now? Verse 12 is making a conclusion of HOW WE CAN LIVE based upon the truth of verse 11. It is actually saying because the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies (Rom 8:10), after we've seen sin rule in our mortal bodies (6:12), we do not have to live after the flesh and commit sins all the time!

That's it!

Romans 6:11-12 is saying that because we are ALIVE UNTO GOD through union to Jesus, we do not have to let sin rule in our MORTAL BODIES ANY MORE. And instead of letting sin rule in our mortal bodies, Romans 8:11-12 says we can instead have the Spirit quicken our mortal bodies IN THE HERE AND NOW.

(And as an aside, ins't it interesting that the verse numbers of both chapters 6 and 8 are the same when speaking of the same thing? Romans 6:11-12 and Romans 8:11-12!)

Romans 6:13 informs us quite clearly that the context from chapters 6 through 8 is speaking of spiritual resurrection in a life of VICTORY IN THE HERE AND NOW!

Romans 6:13 KJV Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

We need to yield TWO THINGS to God.

1) Ourselves!
2) Our bodily members.

And when we are told to yield OURSELVES to God, we are told to do so in a certain MANNER. AS THOSE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD!

And then yield our MEMBERS as instruments of His righteousness!

Now, if we did not have to consciously do that, and it is all automatic, why are we being taught to do this by Paul?

It is because IT WILL NOT HAPPEN unless we first have FAITH for it to happen and then with that faith give ourselves to God to use our bodies, instead of sin always using them, and expect something to happen!

What will happen is what we read about in Romans 8:11.

When we consider ourselves alive from the dead with Jesus, due to the truths of Rom 6:3-5, and we present ourselves to God in that kind of faith understanding, we expect God to move! What will we expect Him to do? If you've learned Romans 6:3-12, you will expect Him to EMPOWER you to stop seeing sin overpower you, and believe for God to cause you to live supernaturally over a lifestyle of committing sin! And that's when Romans 8:10-12 will take place!

We've been so brainwashed by negativity and failure that we think WE HAVE TO SIN and cannot get victory over it. The only victory we think we can have is repenting after we sin! But Paul is saying NO! You do not need to let sin rule in your mortal bodies, but instead can present yourselves as candidates for a PRACTICAL resurrection while you still have a mortal body, so the Spirit can quicken and make alive that DEAD BODY (dead in failures noted in Ro 7:9-11) and you no longer are a debtor to the flesh to live after the flesh all your life and commit sins!

Without knowing the truths of Romans 6, though, we'll never experience this because we won't have faith to so much as believe and then ask God for this to happen!

Hooboy!!!! This stuff is my candystick! I love the truths of Romans 6 through 8!

Can I get a witness?

The DEATH in Romans 8:10 is the DEATH in Romans 7:9-11!!! Not death in physical grave!

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When you read Romans 6 through 8 in order to understand what 8:10-11 is talking about, you realize it is an issue of the here and now Christian life, and whether or not SIN is resurrected in you or YOU are spiritually resurrected instead! The death Paul spoke about was inability to serve God without sinning.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

When you read Romans 6 through 8 in order to understand what 8:10-11 is talking about, you realize it is an issue of the here and now Christian life, and whether or not SIN is resurrected in you or YOU are spiritually resurrected instead! The death Paul spoke about was inability to serve God without sinning.

Mike, I am most impressed with this thread. I too have wondered about Romans 8:11 as a future resurrection does not seem to fit the context of what Paul was discussing.

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Originally Posted by Originalist

Mike, I am most impressed with this thread. I too have wondered about Romans 8:11 as a future resurrection does not seem to fit the context of what Paul was discussing.

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When Paul wrote the body is dead because of sin, those who feel Rom 8:11 is speaking about resurrection from the grave at the last trump feel verse 10 is actually saying If the body is in a state of being dead because of sin, then the trumpet shall sound one day and we'll be raised according to verse 11. But that is not what verse 10 stated, so it makes them err in verse 11. It made a blanket statement to us who are alive when it said the body is dead. The body IS DEAD if Christ is in us. It did not say WILL DIE. It said IS DEAD.

And this goes back to how Paul used the word dead since chapter 7.

Romans 7:8-11 KJV But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul was still physically alive, but he said HE DIED when he failed due to being slain by sin. So, death is speaking of something other than physical death. And the reason he said the body is dead in 8:10 is because the body is instead taken over by "sin and death", the phrase he so often mentions in chapters 7.

The way Paul used the word "dead" in these verses is speaking of failing to serve God. His servitude died, as it were. So, when we read 8:10 say if Christ is in us the body is dead, we are supposed to have that in mind. I'ts like saying, "As far as using the body to serve God by obeying commandments written on paper, the body is dead. It doesn't work. We fail every time. So, it's useless to think we can succeed."

So, Paul noted that the Spirit of Christ can be in us, but the body still be dead, useless to God and to ourselves as far as serving God is concerned. Instead of resorting to making ourselves obey commandments through the power of fleshly exertion and will power, we need the Spirit.

Some think this is speaking of the human spirit, but I disagree. Christ was already stated to be in us.

Romans 8:10 KJV And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

How can the body be dead if Christ is in us, if Paul was talking about failure to serve God and experiencing the slaying by sin so that, like Paul, sin revives and we die? Would Paul have not meant this in reference to sinners alone? How can it apply to Christians?

It does apply to Christians. Whether we're saved or not, anyone, bar none, who tries to serve God by oldness of the letter in forcing ourselves to obey a written commandment will fail, and will in effect be slain by sin. Some think Romans 7 talks only of unregenerate people. But it applies to saved people, as well, because Romans 6 repeats the question, "Know ye not?" After asking us whether or not we KNOW we're baptized into Christ's death (Ro 6:3), and our need to know that we're crucified with Jesus so we should not serve sin (Ro 6:6), and to know just like Jesus died and was risen by the Spirit we died with Him and are risen (Ro 6:10-11), we are informed in verse 12 we must not allow sin to rule in our mortal bodies any longer.

And when Chapter 7 explains how Paul tried to obey the law but realized everytime he did, sin revived and slew him, he's saying the same thing is true for people who are saved! So many think Romans 7 describes only unsaved people. However, saved people have the same struggles as Paul described when they try to serve God without the power of the Spirit. It's like having the Spirit, but not knowing how we must approach the whole issue so that Spirit inside can HELP!

For that reason, Romans 6 continues and says we must present ourselves to God as those alive form the dead -- with that understanding. And the reason we are doing this is because we now know that efforts to make ourselves obey law only cause sin to rise up and kill us, so we're not going to use that approach any longer. We're going to rely on the Spirit of God to cause us to walk in newness of life.

We are alive from the dead in Christ. But we must now WALK in the newness of Life and in the likeness of His resurrection. Did Jesus walk in newness of life after He arose form the grave by resorting to commandments written in papyrus and making himself obey them? Of course not. The SPIRIT OF GOD empowered Him to walk. By the same token, we stop sin from ruling in our mortal bodies by ceasing to resort to command-keeping Christianity, and resorting instead to the Spirit BY PRAYER AND FAITH.

And here is where legalism creeps up and whispers, "See, they're preaching YOU CAN STILL SIN."

No, we must cease sinning. The Spirit in us will not empower us to sin. It empowers us to NOT SIN. The Spirit will work in us when we pray for Him to do so, and when He works, HE DOES NOT COMMIT SIN. If a person is committing sins and claims to be walking in the Spirit, they are liars and they are doing nothing in the Spirit. Someone who is led of the Spirit WILL NOT SIN.

Galatians 5:16 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

This is where Ro 6:13 comes in:

Romans 6:13 KJV Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

S,o instead of sin ruling in our mortal bodies, we've cut off that occasion for sin by not resorting to obedience to commandments, but INSTEAD calling on God and letting Him know we finally understand how it works. Resorting commandments and forcing ourselves to obey is what Paul said CANNOT WORK in Rom 7:9-11.

Verse 13 tells us to pray, "God, here I am alive form the dead! I finally realize that resorting to commandments on paper and forcing myself to obey them only stirs sin up in my flesh and it lashes out and kills any attempt I make to serve you that way. So, I am going to you instead, knowing I am alive from the dead now with Christ, and I only need your Spirit to empower me and cause me to walk in thy statutes. Instead of sin using my members, you use them as instruments of your righteousness. I am alive from the dead, so I know sin does not have to rule me any more. But I also know that I can have your Spirit in me and STILL FAIL if I try to serve you like someone under law who doesn't even have the Holy Ghost in them. I know that, whether saved or not, sin is still in my flesh, and it will rule on me if I use fleshly effort alone to serve you. Using fleshly effort alone is not going to you in prayer for power to serve you! So, here I am, alive from the dead, and ready for you to empower me by your Spirit just like that Spirit raised up Christ form the dead!"

So, in other words, you know the body is dead and useless as far as trying to serve God by commandment keeping. And now that you've prayed, God takes that dead body and brings it to life by the same Spirit that resurrected Jesus, and uses your bodily members as instruments of righteousness, and you are not a debtor to live after the flesh any more! You are LED BY THE SPIRIT.

WALKING AFTER the Spirit is being LED BY the Spirit. A sheep walks after the shepherd, and the shepherd lead the sheep. One phrase is from OUR perspective: Walk after the Spirit. The other phrase is the same thing from God's perspective: Be LED OF THE SPIRIT.

Now this is going to be a zinger for you as you read this: Walking after the flesh is NOT LIMITED to committing sins. It will lead to that, but IT ALSO INCLUDES trying to serve God by law-keeping. It is USING FLESH to serve God, instead of calling on the Spirit of God to empower you to succeed!

We were always told that walking after the flesh is adultery and stealing, etc. But here Paul is also using it to describe serving God in oldness of the letter, which is a flesh-exerting service. The newness of the Spirit in Rom 7:6 corresponds to walking in NEWNESS OF LIFE in Ro 6:4.

THAT is the reason was read in Rom 8:12 that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH but AFTER THE SPIRIT. You can be IN CHRIST and walk after the flesh by living for God like Paul TRIED AND FAILED in Roman 7:9-11.

Romans 7:9-11 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So, Romans 7 is NOT ONLY talking about unsaved people trying to life by the Old Testament method of commandment-obedience. Saved people will fail, too, if they go about service to God like Paul tried in Ro 7:9-11. Walking after the flesh is serving God like Ro 7:9-11. Walking after the Spirit takes some education of Ro 6:3-12, and once you know that truth, you then do what 6:13 says to do! THAT is walking after the Spirit.

And instead of sin ruling in your mortal body like Ro 6:12 says we must not experience, the Spirit quickens that dead body and empowers us to SUCCEED!

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Romans 8:10-17 KJV And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

After we read that we are not debtors to live after the flesh because of the Spirit's quickening, or giving of life to, our mortal bodies, we then read why that's so important. If we are led of the flesh we shall die.

Now, the only reason that can be an explanation for what was said in verse 11, since verse 14 begins with the word "FOR", indicating an explanation for the previous words in verse 11, is for Paul's use of the concept of Spirit quickening to describe what happens when we are what he calls being led of that Spirit. That's important to notice, because it's the reason Romans 8:1 is written the way it is. Condemnation does not come to those who walk after the Spirit. It does, however, come to those in Christ who walk after the flesh. How can you walk after the flesh if you're in Christ? Simple. By law-keeping.

Let me explain.

You would not say, "The way to Walmart is to go over that bridge, because those who take that road will get to Walmart," if getting over the bridge did not require going down the particular road in mind. The quickening of the Spirit in verse 11 is the antecedent for being led of the Spirit in verse 14.

This is a HUGE point of the Romans 7-8 narrative that lawkeepers do not grasp in their reading. If they did, they would no longer be lawkeepers.

Paul described the death of Romans 8:13 in Romans 7:9-11. But through the Spirit we are able to see the deeds of our bodies mortified. THIS is what verse 11 is referring to.

And when you put it altogether, you find it is saying that when we see the Holy Ghost quicken, or give life to, our mortal bodies, we are being led of the Spirit! People think they're led of the Spirit when the feel something in their hearts to do for God and it turns out to be God leading them. I believe that is true. However, that's not the context at all for what this chapter is saying. Paul is claiming in Romans 8 that the ones who experience the Spirit quickening their mortal bodies so the deeds of the body are mortified, as the ones who are led by the Spirit!

It's not a spirit of bondage we receive that puts us in bondage to the flesh and to sin. We receive liberty! The power of the Spirit liberates us, and does not enslave us. It overcomes the sin in our flesh!

[Originalist]

I am going to save these posts to Word. Mike, you are one of the few Apostolic ministers I know who teaches this in-depth from Romans, much less has a clue what it is saying. Our members' spiritual growth is stunted because of they don't hear this kind of teaching. Too many of our ministers are insecure and somehow see Paul's teachings in Romans as a competition for Acts 2:38.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I am going to save these posts to Word. Mike, you are one of the few Apostolic ministers I know who teaches this in-depth from Romans, much less has a clue what it is saying. Our members' spiritual growth is stunted because of they don't hear this kind of teaching. Too many of our ministers are insecure and somehow see Paul's teachings in Romans as a competition for Acts 2:38.

Wow, thanks for your kind words. That's encouraging.

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When you mention Acts 2:38, I indeed saw people think Romans 8 and its reference to walking after the Spirit is what is referred to when you obey Acts 2:38. Period. They think no one who obeys Acts 2:38 can walk after the flesh. So, they think the condemnation of 8:1 is simply being lost, as though walking after the Spirit is simply getting the Holy Ghost.

Not so.

Walking after the Spirit is mortifying the deeds of the body (8:10-11) through yielding to the Spirit according to 6:13.

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Romans 8:11-22 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Once we realize that the Spirit of God is not a Spirit of bondage, but is rather a liberating power in us that can quicken our mortal bodies and mortify the deeds of the flesh, we realize creation is depending on us to experience this.

How does the Spirit bear witness with us that we are the children of God? It is by none other than mortifying the deeds of our bodies and thereby quickening our mortal bodies.

We read that creation is under bondage. And since the Spirit is not a spirit of bondage, and He wants to mortify the deeds in our bodies by quickening our mortal bodies, we see that there is a purpose in our relationship with creation. How are we going to be any hope for creation that is in bondage, if we remain in bondage by selling ourselves to sin through our repeated failure to serve God properly?

That's what Paul was actually asking us.

The selling of ourselves to sin is the failure in trying to serve God, like Paul described as the conclusion somebody who resorts to law-keeping experiences.

If the Spirit is a witness that we are the children of God, and He demonstrates that when a child of God yields to Him and allows Him to mortify the deeds of the body, then we start to realize what it means for creation to wait for the manifestation of the sons of God!

They that are led by the Spirit are the sons of God. SONS here in the Greek is HUIOS which is a MATURE son. A mature son of God is full of understanding and knows how to allow the Spirit to quicken the mortal body. So, when we read the Spirit witnesses that we are God's sons, and those led by the Spirit to mortify the deeds of the body are the ones who are the sons of God, we now understand what the manifestation of the sons of God refers to. It is speaking about sons of God who are visibly known to be sons by their experience of seeing the Spirit mortify the deeds of their bodies. They know how to yield to God as those alive from the dead so the Spirit can then take that risen believer and ANIMATE him or her to mortify the deeds of the body and cause them to WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.

There's a difference between being alive from the dead, and walking as those who are risen. Being alive refers to the state of being. but WALKING refers to actually LIVING IT OUT in practical everyday life. Therefore, when we read the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God, so it=, too, is no longer in BONDAGE, we are reading that creation needs to see some believers who are mature enough to see the Spirit mortify the deeds of their bodies can cause them to stop sinning all of the time. But, if we're bound in the way Paul described bondage in chapter 7, having sold ourselves under sin, how are we going to liberate creation from its bondage? Bound believers cannot liberate bound creation!

When glory is revealed in us, that is the time creation shall be delivered from bondage. And it is related to seeing the Spirit mortify the deeds of our bodies.