Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

This issue has popped up so many times, I cannot keep number, and is the favourite ploy of the unsaved who know nothing of Scripture. So, I am surprised it pops up here.

Judging.

So many say we JUDGE others, when Jesus said not to do so, whenever someone says "___ is lost."

Here's the favourite verse thereby taken out of context:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

The ACTUAL context is understood with the entirety of the issue in mind:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

When you read it ALL, it says the judgment you mete will be meted back onto you again. In other words, if you have something in your eye and you tell someone else about something in their eye, you judged that person for your own problem. In fact, you did worse, because you not only have something in your own eye, but you pointed it out to another when that same one was silent with you.

This means you have to have victory over something that you claim another has a problem with. IT DOES NOT MEAN you are not to point out problems in others. Just don't do it if you have the same problem.

It actually gives you allowance to point out a problem so long as you don't have it yourself.

Furthermore, Paul stated we are intended to judge people who claim to be in the church.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He said those in the church are intended to be judged by believers. Otherwise he would not tell them to cast out the unrepentant fornicator Those outside the church God judges.

Now, when it comes to saying an entire religion's adherents are lost, some claim that is judging. No it's not. The word of God judged them.

Judging is contriving and creating your own criteria for salvation, and thereby determining who is lost and saved. When the bible laid out the criteria and stated disbelief in it or lack of adherence to it means one is lost, then repeating that statement to those who distinctly deny adherence to the biblical criteria are lost is not judging them, but only repeating what the bible said.

Again, judging is when you create the criteria, not when you cite bible where the criteria is plainly laid out.

Now, what I will say next will not be addressed by those who make this claim that we judge. Watch and see:

If it was still judging, and therefore wrong, for a believer to say a certain religious movement is entirely lost because they patently deny what the bible says is necessary for salvation, then we could never fulfil this command from the Lord.

Exekiel 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

When people say we cannot say muslims or hindus or buddhists are lost, because that is judging them, that's like saying we cannot cry out to people as watchmen and warn them of their anger!

Imagine them responding to you and saying, "You're judging me! You said I'm in danger. That's judging me!"

How is that not the case?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This issue has popped up so many times, I cannot keep number, and is the favourite ploy of the unsaved who know nothing of Scripture. So, I am surprised it pops up here.
Judging
Everyone who's unlearned in the Word says we JUDGE others, when Jesus said not to do so, whenever someone says "___ is lost."
Here's the favourite verse thereby taken out of context:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

The ACTUAL context is understood with the entirety of the issue in mind:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

When you read it ALL, it says the judgment you mete will be meted back onto you again. In other words, if you have something in your eye and you tell someone else about something in their eye, you judged that person for your own problem. In fact, you did worse, because you not only have something in your own eye, but you pointed it out to another when that same one was silent with you.
This means you have to have victory over something that you claim another has a problem with. IT DOES NOT MEAN you are not to point out problems in others. Just don't do it if you have the same problem.
It actually gives you allowance to point out a problem so long as you don't have it yourself.
Furthermore, Paul stated we are intended to judge people who claim to be in the church.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He said those in the church are intended to be judged by believers. Otherwise he would not tell them to cast out the unrepentant fornicator Those outside the church God judges.
Now, when it comes to saying an entire religion's adherents are lost, some claim that is judging. No it's not. The word of God judged them.
Judging is contriving and creating your own criteria for salvation, and thereby determining who is lost and saved. When the bible laid out the criteria and stated disbelief in it or lack of adherence to it means one is lost, then repeating that statement to those who distinctly deny adherence to the biblical criteria are lost is not judging them, but only repeating what the bible said.
Again, judging is when you create the criteria, not when you cite bible where the criteria is plainly laid out.
Now, what I will say next will not be addressed by those who make this claim that we judge. Watch and see:
If it was still judging, and therefore wrong, for a believer to say a certain religious movement is entirely lost because they patently deny what the bible says is necessary for salvation, then we could never fulfil this command from the Lord.

Exekiel 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

When people say we cannot say muslims or hindus or buddhists are lost, because that is judging them, that's like saying we cannot cry out to people as watchmen and warn them of their anger!
Imagine them responding to you and saying, "You're judging me! You said I'm in danger. That's judging me!"
How is that not the case?

I "judge" this to be very well written.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

I "judge" this to be very well written.

And you have the right to judge for you also write well!

[houston]

[shazeep]

3. Jealousy motivates judging (Matt 7:1), maligning (Jas 3:14), and revenge (Rom 12:19; Deut 32:35; Heb 10:30), which violate Grace.

http://www.biblenews1.com/define/jealousy.htm

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

3. Jealousy motivates judging (Matt 7:1), maligning (Jas 3:14), and revenge (Rom 12:19; Deut 32:35; Heb 10:30), which violate Grace.

http://www.biblenews1.com/define/jealousy.htm

Where is jealousy in reading:

Ezek 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

...and believing we need to warn those who obey not the gospel to obey it lest they be lost?

Nothing to do with jealousy.

lol

Where is maligning in that? Is it maligning to obey Ezek 3 and warn people?

Where is revenge in obeying Ezek 3?

[mfblume]

Ezek 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Notice the details.

God made MAN a watchman. God tells people to give people warning from Him. When HE SAYS to the wicked to turn from this wicked way, so his life can be saved, AND SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD WHO IS TOLD TO WARN DOES NOT warn, then the victim's blood is on that person's hands.

Those who claim it is judging people to tell them they are lost if they do not obey the gospel are giving a right for the victim in danger to not listen to the warning! Such a victim is enabled by such a person to accuse the watchman of judging!

"You cannot tell me I am in danger. You're judging me!"

This perspective is so subtle and yet so obvious in other ways, and there is no defence USING THAT PASSAGE for these folks to say otherwise.

You're enabling people to not heed the warning and rephrasing it all to accuse watchmen of being judges, in order to make their warnings go unheeded. And THAT, folks, is something to be fearful of for the time we all stand before God.

Again, someone show me otherwise using this passage and how this passage is not saying what I claim.

See, all this reasoning and conjecture, and claim of judging, cannot stand the scrutiny of actual scriptural discussion. So the bible and what it actually says in context is never touched. Folks love taking a verse or two out of context. But when someone says, "Let's talk context and deal with the overall writing," these folks flee!

Talk about philosophy and opinion, apart from scripture, and they'll talk hours. Pages of debate. But point to one little verse and say let's really study this in light of the overall biblical message, and they're gone.

[shazeep]

ok well you are in danger, and i have done my best. But i will let you get back to your mutual admiration society thing. Have a nice day.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok well you are in danger, and i have done my best. But i will let you get back to your mutual admiration society thing. Have a nice day.

See? You cannot deal with Ezekiel 3. You can't and you won't. Actual discussion with the bible ruins your created philosophy that claims it's bible based. Have a nice day, as well!

And you are dealing with God on this one. Not me. It's His word. I ask how your view does not violate Ezekiel 3 and you cannot answer. Typical. Expected, too. But you can face God on that one yourself.

Mutual admiration? Where? lol A person cannot really be that blind that Ezekiel 3 is violated to this extent, can they? Old, judgmental Ezekiel must have made that one up!

[MAC daddy]

People usually play the "don't judge me" card because they're worried about what other people think of their actions.

They don't honestly care what God thinks. If they did, their actions would actually be different.

Playing the judge card often is a sign of unbelief meant to protect the user from realizing their fear of being disapproved of by humanity. God is very rarely actually in their thoughts.