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  #51  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:02 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
You have an excellent point.

But to really appreciate what we are actually talking about. You would need to at least watch the last video. I know I’m handing out homework with everyones already busy schedule. But one needs to watch the video or videos to understand what is really being commented on.
Will do. Thanks.
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  #52  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:13 AM
Ehud Ehud is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Okay, I have listened to the video three times now, but being interrupted each time, I admittedly could have missed something.

In giving the definition, I believe the meaning has been stretched too far. The definition used would seem to be this one: From telos; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.). To say the word *must* include moral character is incorrect. It *can* include moral character, but that is only one of the possible applications. Even if I grant that moral character is applicable, we then would have to define 'moral character'. The presentation doesn't seem to allow for those who are legitimately trying, but stumble. A truly sinless *requirement* is much more absolute than is being implied.

In Matthew 5:48, we have a summation of the preceding verses that leads me to believe that being perfect in this context means loving everyone, both friend and foe alike. In John 15, we are told if we keep His commandments, we will abide in His love. The commandment that is then highlighted is loving one another as He loved us. I don't say that to imply that nothing else matters, but it is certainly the immediate context.

How would 1 John 1:8 fit into all of this? If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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  #53  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:37 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Quote:
Ehud

In giving the definition, I believe the meaning has been stretched too far. The definition used would seem to be this one: From telos; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.). To say the word *must* include moral character is incorrect. It *can* include moral character, but that is only one of the possible applications. Even if I grant that moral character is applicable, we then would have to define 'moral character'.
Which do you think it means? If it means "complete" in what way is God complete?

It would read like:

Be ye therefore complete EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is complete. Matt 5:48

So Jesus wants us to be complete like the Father is complete. My point in the video is that is to vague.

If the word means "mature" lets see how that works.

Be ye therefore mature EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is mature. Matt 5:48

Can you imagine anyone being as MATURE as God is mature? As FULL AGE as he is of full age?

Some may think they are making it easier for the disciple by distancing themselves from the idea of moral character. That it would be to hard for us to have moral character like he has.

Would it be easier for us to be AS MATURE as he is mature?

Would it be easier to be of FULL AGE as he is of full age?

It seems it would be much easier for us to have the kind of character he has than the other possibilities.

Especially when you consider the parallel verses.

1 Peter 1:13-16

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Whatever "perfect" means in Matt 5:48 seems to be the same as "holy" in 1 Peter 1:15

Many will balk at the command of Peter to be holy EVEN AS the Lord Jesus is holy.

Another parallel verse that helps us understand the meaning of "perfect" in Matt 5:48 may well be 1 John 3:2-3

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The Lord through apostle John tells us to PURIFY ourselves EVEN AS he is pure!

Let us consider. The saint is called to be:

A. Perfect even as he is perfect.
B.Holy even as he is holy.
C. Pure even as he is pure.

So "perfect" seems to carry the same idea as holy and pure.
Quote:
In Matthew 5:48, we have a summation of the preceding verses that leads me to believe that being perfect in this context means loving everyone, both friend and foe alike. In John 15, we are told if we keep His commandments, we will abide in His love. The commandment that is then highlighted is loving one another as He loved us. I don't say that to imply that nothing else matters, but it is certainly the immediate context.
What are the two great commands?

Mark 12

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

So yes being perfect, holy, and pure certainly includes the action of love.

Quote:
The presentation doesn't seem to allow for those who are legitimately trying, but stumble. A truly sinless *requirement* is much more absolute than is being implied.
If you indeed listened to what I said on the videos you will understand I stress that if one is NOT perfect before God they need to REPENT. Repentance restores the saint to perfection in Gods sight. So I have not presented anything different on the matter of holiness and perfection than the Bible presents.

Quote:
How would 1 John 1:8 fit into all of this? If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Since this is what I would consider the top objection to the teaching of sinless perfection I will be glad to show how it fits in.

I would like to put it on a video. Let me give that a try and I will put it here hopefully today. If it does not work out I will type it as I'm doing now.
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  #54  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:55 PM
Ehud Ehud is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Which do you think it means? If it means "complete" in what way is God complete?
With regards to Matthew 5:48, I believe the completeness being spoken of is in His love for everyone.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. -- Romans 5:8 (KJV)

I believe we are being told that we should be striving to reach a point of maturation in which we not only love our brothers, but also our enemies. I think taking this verse to mean much more than that is to take it out of its context completely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Let us consider. The saint is called to be:

A. Perfect even as he is perfect.
B.Holy even as he is holy.
C. Pure even as he is pure.

So "perfect" seems to carry the same idea as holy and pure.
Be round like the circle. Be large like the circle. Be red like the circle. I don't think you would equate, round, large, and red, but that is how I see your connecting of those dots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
What are the two great commands?

Mark 12

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

So yes being perfect, holy, and pure certainly includes the action of love.
Now here I think we are getting very close. You say it "includes" love, but I would be more likely to say it IS love.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. -- Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)

If everything hangs on those two commandments, I would be interested to know what you would add. If it can't fit within those two, I think we should ask if it truly needs to be included.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
If you indeed listened to what I said on the videos you will understand I stress that if one is NOT perfect before God they need to REPENT. Repentance restores the saint to perfection in Gods sight. So I have not presented anything different on the matter of holiness and perfection than the Bible presents.
Yes, I understand what you are saying. My problem is with the consequences of those statements in light of 'perfection'. It would mean a "struggling saint" is an oxymoron. That individual would actually be saint/sinner/saint/sinner/saint/... I struggle to see that as scriptural, but I'll continue to listen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Since this is what I would consider the top objection to the teaching of sinless perfection I will be glad to show how it fits in.

I would like to put it on a video. Let me give that a try and I will put it here hopefully today. If it does not work out I will type it as I'm doing now.
Works for me.
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  #55  
Old 06-11-2019, 03:00 PM
Ehud Ehud is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Bro. Benincasa, since you are the reason I'm getting involved in this thread, please feel free correct me on anything I have posted. It would be very much appreciated.
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  #56  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:10 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

1 John 1:8

  #57  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:26 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So you think Spirit filled Christians can't be sin free? Did you watch my videos?
No, I do not think you or me or anyone is going to be sin free. But what do you mean by "sin free"? This minute? today? a lifetime, what?

I have not watched all the videos yet. I just now have some time to get back on this forum.

Quote:
Can you show anywhere that I said or wrote that the instant someone sins they lose their justified status?
There was a thread a while back on what is the state of a believer from the moment he or she sins till repentance. In other words is the believer lost until he repents? I'm pretty sure you posted in that thread as some of the others on this thread posted as well. I'm pretty sure I was alone in saying I did not think a person lost their salvation till they repented. That is, I was the only one who did not think a person was no longer justified, i.e., lost, till he repented. There is no good news to the Gospel if I think I am only saved as long as I perfectly obey.

So based on what you've just said in the quote, maybe you in fact do not believe a person loses their salvation when he or she sins. Do you or do you not believe this?

Quote:
If Jesus Christ is in someone every moment HE IS SAVING THEM minute by minute by his Spirit.

Our salvation is not BASED on our obedience. But our obedience IS an essential part of its finality.
I don't know what this actually means. Could you clarify?

Quote:
1 John 2:17

17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
But you don't perfectly do the will of God, and neither do I. If somebody thinks he does, he has an overdeveloped sense of his own righteousness, and probably an underdeveloped sense of what sin is. Do you honestly think you perfectly fulfill Jesus's command to love your neighbor as yourself? So, if you don't perfectly do God's will, where does that leave you?
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  #58  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:43 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post



But you don't perfectly do the will of God, and neither do I. If somebody thinks he does, he has an overdeveloped sense of his own righteousness, and probably an underdeveloped sense of what sin is.
Can you demonstrate from the Scripture that "nobody perfectly does the will of God"? And please address the numerous Scriptures which command us to do the will of God and explain why we are commanded to do something that God does not expect us to do?
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  #59  
Old 06-15-2019, 01:00 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Can you demonstrate from the Scripture that "nobody perfectly does the will of God"? And please address the numerous Scriptures which command us to do the will of God and explain why we are commanded to do something that God does not expect us to do?
Esaias, have you perfectly done the will of God? Of course not. Have I? Of course not.

Heb 4.15-16: 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The implication is we do at times sin and therefore need to come before the throne of grace that we may find mercy and grace.

1 John 1.8-9: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If someone says they never sin, they are mistaken--even deceived.

The goal, of course, is sinless perfection: "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin." 1 John 2.1

But when we are not in fact perfect, praise God for the Cross: "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1.1-2
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  #60  
Old 06-15-2019, 01:00 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Can you demonstrate from the Scripture that "nobody perfectly does the will of God"? And please address the numerous Scriptures which command us to do the will of God and explain why we are commanded to do something that God does not expect us to do?
Please address what you mean by perfectly doing the will of God.
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