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Originally Posted by votivesoul
Here's the thing:
1.) The rushing mighty wind and the cloven tongues like of fire were not the results of someone receiving the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they do not set precedent for what happens afterward someone receives the Holy Spirit today.
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Tongues are the result of the Spirit giving utterance. Tongues are preceded in Acts by the sound from heaven of a rushing mighty wind and cloven tongues like as of fire setting upon each of them. The Bible doesn’t say that these signs are necessary as evidence, neither does it say that tongues are necessary as evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
2.) The rushing mighty wind and cloven tongues of fire were unique one time events because this was the first time the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was an inaugural event, which need never be replicated, as these two events had prophetic meaning and fulfillment of OT typology. So, again, no need to point to these things as precedents.
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Of course you have no scripture verifying that they are one time events. There are reports of it (cloven tongues) happening since. You obviously choose not to believe these reports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
3.) Anything happening one time and one time only, is not sufficient to establish precedent in any legal sense, which is what we are trying to do (that is, establish the Scriptural rule that regulates what happens when someone receives the Holy Spirit), especially when a better, more consistent precedent that has occurred more than one time, is already present. like speaking with other tongues.
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The bold portion is simply untrue. Using the legal precedent of Roe versus Wade, women have been exonerated of murder since 1973. How many times did it take for the legal system to recognize Roe versus Wade as a precedent? One.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
So, just grabbing any definition of the word precedent from a dictionary is insufficient.
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You pretend that I just grabbed any definition, which I did not do. How lame is that? I quoted Miriam Webster in full. (Both definitions). I used them in the proper context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
We need to use the correct definition of the word, and the correct definition of precedent in this instance is that which establishes precedent in a legal sense.
Therefore:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_precedent
You see that a principle or rule is established that then influences future decisions in a way that provides predictable, stable fair, and efficient understanding of what happens when someone receives the Holy Spirit. |
The problem with your theory is that the legal definition is no different from the secular definition. Roe versus Wade is a legal precedent. It simply means that it is a case that PRECEDED any case since 1973 concerning abortion. It doesn’t make it right, it only means it happened prior to, and of course it may be overturned. Mixing legal precedent and scripture may not be the best idea you’ve had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul
4.) Lastly, none of us knows anyone, including ourselves, who received the Holy Spirit, any other way than by speaking with other tongues.
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I KNOW A MAN.
Allow me to introduce you to Jesus Christ, who was filled with the Holy Ghost (no mention of tongues) according to:
Luke
4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
But of course Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost because He was God manifested in the flesh. His body was the vail and was typified by the vail that separated the holiest place. So this is low-hanging fruit.
However . . .
John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. No mention of tongues being evidence. Imagine him speaking in tongues in-utero.
Luke.1:15, 41, 67
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Annnd . . .
Elisabeth, the mother of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost, no tongues mentioned:
[41] And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Also Zecharias was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied, with no mention of another language.
[67] And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
So we have scriptural verification of people being filled with the Holy Ghost without mention of tongues as evidence. We also have many people who received the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues and many who were added to the church without mention of whether or not they spoke in tongues. The temptation is to add to the Bible and say, as many people do, that you can’t go to heaven unless you have spoken in tongues. It reminds me of the brasen serpent that the Israelites came to worship. They idolized the serpent, instead of praising God for deliverance. Some may think it blasphemous that I even say this. If so it should serve as a sign that you have elevated tongues to idolatry status. We tend to seek a sign that we can see or hear. The Bible doesn’t say that tongues is the evidence. It also doesn’t say that it isn’t. It does say that we can speak with tongues of men and angels, but if we have not love charity we are as a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol. Tongues do not save us. We are forbidden to add to the word of God, or diminish ought from His word. Unfortunately we feel free to do so.
I received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. Prior to truly receiving the Holy Ghost, I also was coached into believing that I had received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues when it never happened. The same thing happened to my daughter and others that I know. It probably has happened more than people would believe.
I think it is a result of well intended (altar workers) seeking the sign, rather than seeking God. According to
Acts 2 it is a promise of God, and it is a gift. Sometimes I believe we should just trust God to do what he promised, instead of checking the speaking in tongues box. Of course that would require having faith in God, and who has time for that?
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