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  #151  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:40 PM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I want to have a deliverence ministry. The apostles prayed for people and chains of sin and sickness just fell off. Today some people get coached into saying a few uncomprehendable words and they are told they got it. After they leave they go back to their sins and live their lives void of the power of God. I know this may not always be the case, but I don't ever want to see people decieved. I want to see revival like never before. Where people come in off the streets and they are filled with the power of God. Where drug addicts are rehabilitated instantaneusly by the renewing of the Spirit. etc... Oh how sweet it is to think about.
A person has to want it, really want it or they will, inevitably, go back to their lifestyle.
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  #152  
Old 08-03-2019, 10:43 PM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother, there are several inconsistencies in your post. Take your time editing it before I respond.
Show me where and how so I will revise.

But you doing less than that is seriously lame.
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  #153  
Old 08-03-2019, 10:53 PM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by Rev Ike View Post

Jesus said “These signs shall follow them that believe...” the list includes speaking with new tongues and the handling of snakes. Not to offend anyone, but to point out that an elder in a church I attended stated that just because Jesus said we could didn’t mean we HAVE to handle snakes. That was one of the first times in my life that I questioned whether or not tongues was required.
Why think the taking up of serpents refers to literal snakes? Seems scribes and Pharisees or even evil spirits fit the bill much better than diamondbacks or cobras.

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What, I guess bothers me and I believe was expressed very well by GOOD SAMARITAN is that we seems to be focused on the the gift of the Holy Ghost and almost a hype focus on getting someone to speak in tongues, rather than the Giver of the Holy Ghost, and the fruit of the Spirit.

Too many times I have heard sermons about the HG rather than Jesus. If you read the sermons that lead to the out pouring, you will find that they were telling people about Jesus.
The Gift is the Giver. There is no way one can seek Jesus and not be seeking the Holy Spirit, or vice versa.

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And I understand that my experiences are not everyone’s experiences, but the point of other people failing negating the truth wasn’t why I came to question things, it was MY failures. The fact that I have the HG and yet didn’t have the Love that Paul refers to in I Cor 13... what I discovered in me was that while I have the HG, I still struggle with hate, strife, etc. I found that Gods Love wasn’t pouring out of me...
Your personal failures or anyone's for that matter doesn't prove anything in term of whether or not someone has or hasn't received the Holy Spirit. You wrote you have had the Holy Spirit for many years, right?

How do you know that?

If what you are saying is true, you didn't have the Holy Spirit until God's love began pouring out of you. So is it 34 years or some lesser number?

Quote:
So, I’ll ask the question does speaking in tongues always PROVE you have the Holy Ghost? Did we become as the Pharisees “always looking for a sign”. (Improper use of the scripture I know, because Jesus was on another subject), but are we trying to find a sign and calling it THE sign and the only way into the church “club” is you have to come in with tongues?
It proves someone has received the Holy Spirit. It doesn't prove whether or not someone is walking in the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, sowing to the Spirit, or etc. It's just the evidence that God has taken up residence. If someone wants to treat Him as an occasional houseguest and not the owner of the house after that, is on them.

Otherwise, it is God Himself and His witness and testimony that you are negating.
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  #154  
Old 08-03-2019, 10:54 PM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by Rev Ike View Post
I have personally witnessed the same - focused on tongues as the Holy Ghost and not a repentant heart. I witnessed a person being “prayed through” and it wasn’t working. I mentioned to a friend near me watching the attempted break through - that the person hadn’t repented. The other workers after a while gave up and just walked away. I walked up and the person who was still in a prayerful spirit and I paused him and asked if he had repented of his sins and was ready to turn from sin. The answer was “No” and with that they walked away. So they were seeking the power without the repentant heart towards GOD.
Heteropraxy does not negate orthodoxy.
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  #155  
Old 08-04-2019, 08:21 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Show me where and how so I will revise.

But you doing less than that is seriously lame.
Welcome to a discussion with Tithemister.
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  #156  
Old 08-04-2019, 08:22 AM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Heteropraxy does not negate orthodoxy.
Having fun with Chris.
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  #157  
Old 08-04-2019, 03:04 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Here's the thing:

1.) The rushing mighty wind and the cloven tongues like of fire were not the results of someone receiving the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they do not set precedent for what happens afterward someone receives the Holy Spirit today.
Tongues are the result of the Spirit giving utterance. Tongues are preceded in Acts by the sound from heaven of a rushing mighty wind and cloven tongues like as of fire setting upon each of them. The Bible doesn’t say that these signs are necessary as evidence, neither does it say that tongues are necessary as evidence.

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
2.) The rushing mighty wind and cloven tongues of fire were unique one time events because this was the first time the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was an inaugural event, which need never be replicated, as these two events had prophetic meaning and fulfillment of OT typology. So, again, no need to point to these things as precedents.
Of course you have no scripture verifying that they are one time events. There are reports of it (cloven tongues) happening since. You obviously choose not to believe these reports.

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
3.) Anything happening one time and one time only, is not sufficient to establish precedent in any legal sense, which is what we are trying to do (that is, establish the Scriptural rule that regulates what happens when someone receives the Holy Spirit), especially when a better, more consistent precedent that has occurred more than one time, is already present. like speaking with other tongues.
The bold portion is simply untrue. Using the legal precedent of Roe versus Wade, women have been exonerated of murder since 1973. How many times did it take for the legal system to recognize Roe versus Wade as a precedent? One.

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
So, just grabbing any definition of the word precedent from a dictionary is insufficient.
You pretend that I just grabbed any definition, which I did not do. How lame is that? I quoted Miriam Webster in full. (Both definitions). I used them in the proper context.

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
We need to use the correct definition of the word, and the correct definition of precedent in this instance is that which establishes precedent in a legal sense.

Therefore:


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_precedent

You see that a principle or rule is established that then influences future decisions in a way that provides predictable, stable fair, and efficient understanding of what happens when someone receives the Holy Spirit.
The problem with your theory is that the legal definition is no different from the secular definition. Roe versus Wade is a legal precedent. It simply means that it is a case that PRECEDED any case since 1973 concerning abortion. It doesn’t make it right, it only means it happened prior to, and of course it may be overturned. Mixing legal precedent and scripture may not be the best idea you’ve had.

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
4.) Lastly, none of us knows anyone, including ourselves, who received the Holy Spirit, any other way than by speaking with other tongues.
I KNOW A MAN.

Allow me to introduce you to Jesus Christ, who was filled with the Holy Ghost (no mention of tongues) according to:

Luke

4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

But of course Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost because He was God manifested in the flesh. His body was the vail and was typified by the vail that separated the holiest place. So this is low-hanging fruit.

However . . .

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. No mention of tongues being evidence. Imagine him speaking in tongues in-utero.

Luke.1:15, 41, 67

[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Annnd . . .

Elisabeth, the mother of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost, no tongues mentioned:

[41] And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Also Zecharias was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied, with no mention of another language.

[67] And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

So we have scriptural verification of people being filled with the Holy Ghost without mention of tongues as evidence. We also have many people who received the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues and many who were added to the church without mention of whether or not they spoke in tongues. The temptation is to add to the Bible and say, as many people do, that you can’t go to heaven unless you have spoken in tongues. It reminds me of the brasen serpent that the Israelites came to worship. They idolized the serpent, instead of praising God for deliverance. Some may think it blasphemous that I even say this. If so it should serve as a sign that you have elevated tongues to idolatry status. We tend to seek a sign that we can see or hear. The Bible doesn’t say that tongues is the evidence. It also doesn’t say that it isn’t. It does say that we can speak with tongues of men and angels, but if we have not love charity we are as a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol. Tongues do not save us. We are forbidden to add to the word of God, or diminish ought from His word. Unfortunately we feel free to do so.

I received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. Prior to truly receiving the Holy Ghost, I also was coached into believing that I had received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues when it never happened. The same thing happened to my daughter and others that I know. It probably has happened more than people would believe.

I think it is a result of well intended (altar workers) seeking the sign, rather than seeking God. According to Acts 2 it is a promise of God, and it is a gift. Sometimes I believe we should just trust God to do what he promised, instead of checking the speaking in tongues box. Of course that would require having faith in God, and who has time for that?
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  #158  
Old 08-04-2019, 03:30 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Hi Chris.
Rev. Ike,

It has occurred to me that you may not know what EB means by calling you Chris. It is not intended as a compliment. Chris is a person that went by the screen name of Aquila who EB loved to denigrate, and insult. He has accused several of being Chris without any tangible evidence, since Aquila was banned about a year ago.

He obviously misses the good ol’ days when he was able to bash Chris on a daily basis. Chris had some very liberal views. He doesn’t seem to be much like you at all. Maybe one day he will return to the forum and give EB something to look forward to every day. EB’s gift of discernment is obviously a bit rusty, but his ability to call names and falsely accuse would make any third grade class bully proud.

I thought I would give a little background, just in case you are scratching your head.

Once again, welcome to the forum.
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  #159  
Old 08-04-2019, 04:00 PM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Rev. Ike,

It has occurred to me that you may not know what EB means by calling you Chris. It is not intended as a compliment. Chris is a person that went by the screen name of Aquila who EB loved to denigrate, and insult. He has accused several of being Chris without any tangible evidence, since Aquila was banned about a year ago.

He obviously misses the good ol’ days when he was able to bash Chris on a daily basis. Chris had some very liberal views. He doesn’t seem to be much like you at all. Maybe one day he will return to the forum and give EB something to look forward to every day. EB’s gift of discernment is obviously a bit rusty, but his ability to call names and falsely accuse would make any third grade class bully proud.

I thought I would give a little background, just in case you are scratching your head.

Once again, welcome to the forum.
Brother, there are several inconsistencies in your post. Take your time editing it before I respond.
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  #160  
Old 08-04-2019, 04:27 PM
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Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin

I have failed to see several inconsistencies in that post, perhaps you can point them out.

Last edited by JamesGlen; 08-04-2019 at 04:49 PM.
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