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  #11  
Old 02-25-2019, 04:53 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

The original thread is here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=53118

Unfortunately, moving everything here to a new thread has broken the continuity of discussion, as posts and quotes with responses have to be reformatted, and context is lost.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:07 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Context is not lost, and are you implying I did this purposely to accomplish that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Do you understand that your statement comes across as saying "Context is not used to determine the meaning of a word in Scripture"?
I am standing on context by using what Colossians 2 said along with what Galatians 3 said, which is why I said the actual overall picture is that the reason elements of the world are listed as law in Col 2 with traditions of men is because we not only are to avoid traditions of men, but also elementary schooling of law if those elements are said to not be something we much engage in.

Please include all I say about the issue, and not just one small part out of overall context.
Quote:
It has been noted by many that simply taking a Strong's Dictionary and thinking THAT determines the meaning of a Biblical term, without regard to it's USAGE in Scripture, in it's CONTEXT, is a sure fire way to misunderstanding?
Read again what I just said.

Quote:
Brother Blume, the Galatians were pagans, in bondage to stoicheion of the world, and were slipping back into the bondage they had been delivered from.
Paul said the Jews were in bondage to the elements of the world. Jews, Esaias. Jews. They were under law until Christ came, like students bound under tutorship until graduation day. That’s plain context.

Quote:
Paul did say "the same type or classification of bondage", but that they were desiring to be in bondage to what they had been delivered from when they worshipped devils.
He said BONDAGE, period. And like so many scholars noted apart from my own studies that arrived at the same conclusion, showing it’s self-evident, they went from one form of bondage to another.

Quote:
The new testament shows a Sabbath keeping church. Luke constantly refers to the seventh day as the Sabbath, in non Judean contexts. His mindset was different than yours, as evidenced by the terms he uses.
That’s a claim you did not even attempt to justify by example. Jesus was born under the law and kept all the observances of law. That does not prove we’re meant to keep law.

Quote:
Also, Paul was repeatedly accused of speaking against the law. If Paul taught what YOU taught, the accusations would be justified. Yet Paul repeatedly affirmed he said no such things. Calling the recognition of God's holy days and especially the weekly Sabbath "weak and beggarly elements" that everyone ought to abandon would fit the bill, yet Paul denied such accusations.
It’s so plain to see in Paul’s context of Gal 3 through 4 that’s it’s hard to resist refusing to answer your statement here. I really cannot believe you cannot see the point I am making about Gal 3-4 context knowing what you’re seen in other issues. It’s like you’re in a bubble when it comes to Sabbath keeping while you are great in other aspects. You hit this issue and it’s ridiculous compared to brilliant words on other issues.

Paul was said to be speaking against law because they thought he meant law was trash and rubbish, which is what you were actually, and falsely, accusing me of antinomianism a few months ago.
Paul never stated law was trash, but it can appear to have been the case when one does not understand what Paul taught about how we are meant to live by strength of the Spirit, after prayer in faith for God to empower us to live righteously, rather than making ourselves obey rules on a list.

Paul plainly stated that the commandments of God written and engraved on stones were the MINISTRATION OF DEATH. I meant to bring this up earlier, since I recall how you waffled on that terribly so by saying Paul was not referring to the actual ten commandments in 2 Cor 3 when he distinctly said he was! And to see Sabbath fulfilled is to keep it in our rest with Christ, aside from the moral commandments to not kill, etc., which are not shadows as Sabbaths were.

Quote:
The post apostolic history of the church shows that Sabbath keeping (and Passover and Pentecost as well!) were apostolic traditions attacked by the developing trinitarian catholic movement, along with Oneness and Jesus' Name baptism.
No, and the same argument you use here can be said about real presence in the communion supper, which was claimed to have been kept by the early church. This is why I stick with the BIBLE, and not to so-called historical references outside the bible.

Quote:
I've studied this out for YEARS, and honestly I've heard just about every argument there is on the subject.
I’ve also studied this for YEARS, Esaias. YEARS. I n ever even met a sabbatarian when I began studying this, because the bible teaches about the issue. So, let’s leave how long we’ve studies this or what history after the bible says, and deal with the bible as I have been.
Quote:
Example: Sabbath keeping is a fundamental building block (of what, we may enquire?) and therefore we can do away with it.
I already said it was a shadow of Christ’s rest through the work of the cross. I already said the context of Hebrews 4 leads up to our need to go to that throne upon which he rested, which you seemed to agree with, though you never really clarified it when I asked, after you claimed you keep Sabbath and refer to a superior on where we’re told there remains a rest to the people of God in Heb 4.

Quote:
You once compared it to "ABCs" but failed to grasp what you yourself were saying: that once we learn to read and write complex syntax we can do away with the ABCs! Absurd!
How can you twist words like this so often? The ABC comparison is doing away with the actual blocks that are painted with letters of the alphabet to teach us how to read and write, and being abandoned so that we do not have to resort to our little wooden blocks of painted letters when we actually write as adults. Keeping the day is a building block that teaches us there is a superior rest beyond mere observance of a physical day on planet earth, which is resting in the finished work of the cross.

Wonderfully enough, this is shown when Israel left Sinai, where law was given, and went a three day journey to enter the REST OF CANAAN, representing entrance into the rest of the cross by leaving law’s schoolmastery.

Quote:
The Sabbath was around long before Sinai and the law COVENANT. Jesus said it was made for MAN, which man must be Adam, and by extension all mankind. Not just "the Jews".
Show me one man keeping it in the bible before Moses came with law.

Quote:
Your arguments about Sabbath keeping being "fulfilled" by simply being a Christian would apply to all of the Ten Commandments.
No it would not apply to all ten. How is a command to not murder fulfilled in Christ so we need not keep the refrain from murder any more?

Quote:
I have repeatedly pointed this out to you but you keep avoiding it. The same arguments you make re the Fourth Commandment can be made against the others.
No it cannot. And I explained that over and over and you refuse to acknowledge I ever did. AGAIN (!!) let me explain it. Sabbath was a a shadow of the rest Christ entered after his work of NEW creation, and we enter that REST by ceasing from law’s push to make us righteous through works. Now how can that apply to the other of the ten?

Quote:
Ex: The fifth commandment centers on physical actions and biological (fleshly, natural) parents, but Jesus is our Father and the church is our Mother, these are higher spiritual truths found in Christ. So what the fourth commandment pictured is for us to give honour to God and Church, and therefore we do not need to bother with the literal obedience to the literal command in regard to our fleshly fathers and mother's.
You’re really reaching now.

Honouring mother and father is a moral obligation aside from the amoral nature of Sabbath keeping.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:32 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Concerning Colossians 2:14 and what was blotted out at the cross:

From the Forward to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
...New Testament Greek is not the Attic of the Classics, nor is it "a language of the Holy Ghost" as one scholar called it, but it is the ordinary vernacular Greek of that period, the language of everyday life, as it was spoken and written by the ordinary men and women of the day, tradesmen, soldiers, schoolboys, lovers, clerks, and so on, that is, the koine, or "Common" Greek of the great Graeceo-Roman world.

In illustration of this, look at Col. 2:14, which has several words which are found in the papyri; and take one of these, Cheirographon, handwriting. This means a memorandum of debt, 'a writing by hand' used in public and private contracts, and it is a technical word in the Greek papyri. A large number of ancient notes of hand have been published and of these Dr. Deissmann says, "a stereotyped formula in these documents is the promise to pay back the berrowed money, 'I will repay'; and they all are in the debtor's own hand, or, if he could not write, in the handwriting of another acting for him, with the express remark, 'I have written for him'". In such a note-of-hand, belonging to the first century, and with reference to a hundred silver drachmae, one named Papus wrote on behalf of two people who could not write, "which we will also repay, with any other that we may owe, I Papus wrote for him who is not able to write."

Now, this expression occurs in the New Testament twice, in the parable of "The Lord and his Servants", "have patience with me, and I will pay thee all", and in Paul's note to Philemon concerning Onesimus, "if he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account, I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it."

In the famous Florentine papyrus of A.D. 85, the governor of Egypt gives this order in the course of a trial,--"Let the hand-writing be crossed out," which corresponds to the "blotting out the hand-writing" of Col. 2:14.
Many such illustrations might be given, from which we see that the papyri have a distinct expository value.
https://studybible.info/vines/

(emphasis added)
Yeah, so?

Paul is using the illustration to show that the ordinances were similar to the formula in documents you referred to.

BARNES:
The word rendered handwriting means something written by the hand, a manuscript; and here, probably, the writings of the Mosaic law, or the law appointing many ordinances or observances in religion. The allusion is probably to a written contract, in which we bind ourselves to do any work, or to make a payment, and which remains in force against us until the bond is cancelled. That might be done, either by blotting out the names, or by drawing lines through it, or, as appears to have been practiced in the East, by driving a nail through it. The Jewish ceremonial law is here represented as such a contract, binding those under it to its observance, until it was nailed to the cross. The meaning here is, that the burdensome requirements of the Mosaic law are abolished, and that its necessity is superseded by the death of Christ. His death had the same effect, in reference to those ordinances, as if they had been blotted from the statute-book. This it did by fulfilling them, by introducing a more perfect system, and by rendering their observance no longer necessary, since all that they were designed to typify had been now accomplished in a better way; compare the notes at Eph_2:15.
Of ordinances - Prescribing the numerous rites and ceremonies of the Jewish religion.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:42 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Not all historicists. Shall I quite Froom, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Hardy? Or how about the Puritans, Reformed Baptists, and most other Protestant "divines", who although they were in error in thinking the Sabbath Commandment was transferred from the seventh day to the first day of the week, nevertheless were generally historicists (and amillennialists!) and affirmed everything I maintain about the Sabbath (again, with the exception of which day of the week it applies to)?
I quoted their words about Sabbath being a shadow to show my reasoning is not absurd or stupid, but repeated by scholars identically. I was not saying everything those guys say about the bible is true, but proved a point that my reasoning on the issue is not ridiculous.

You speak of your view clearly being shown in these references we debated, yet they weren’t clearly seen to other scholars.

Quote:
Speaking of Adam Clarke, whom you cited:

From his Commentary:

Verse 8
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy -
See what has been already said on this precept, Genesis 2:2, and elsewhere. See Clarke's note on Genesis 2:2. As this was the most ancient institution, God calls them to remember it; as if he had said, Do not forget that when I had finished my creation I instituted the Sabbath, and remember why I did so, and for what purposes. The word שבת shabbath signifies rest or cessation from labor; and the sanctification of the seventh day is commanded, as having something representative in it; and so indeed it has, for it typifies the rest which remains for the people of God, and in this light it evidently appears to have been understood by the apostle, Hebrews 4. Because this commandment has not been particularly mentioned in the New Testament as a moral precept binding on all, therefore some have presumptuously inferred that there is no Sabbath under the Christian dispensation. The truth is, the Sabbath is considered as a type: all types are of full force till the thing signified by them takes place; but the thing signified by the Sabbath is that rest in glory which remains for the people of God, therefore the moral obligation of the Sabbath must continue till time be swallowed up in eternity.

Well, so much for Clarke being an antisabbatarian.
Who said he was antisabbatarian? You’re starting to put words in my mouth and make strawman arguments.

I said he agreed with me about what Sabbaths being a shadow referred to and did not agree with you about the intention of that reference in Paul's verse to the shadow.

He also agreed with me about the "elements of the world" being law's elements.

I do not agree with everything Clarke says, and you know you do not. I was pointing out hat my reasoning of what elements of law are are not ridiculous but agreed upon by scholars.
To the weak and beggarly elements - After receiving all this, will ye turn again to the ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law - rites too weak to counteract your sinful habits, and too poor to purchase pardon and eternal life for you? If the Galatians were turning again to them, it is evident that they had been once addicted to them. And this they might have been, allowing that they had become converts from heathenism to Judaism, and from Judaism to Christianity. This makes the sense consistent between the 8th and 9th verses.

...


The elements of the world - A mere Jewish phrase, יסודי עולם הזה yesodey olam hazzeh, “the principles of this world;” that is, the rudiments or principles of the Jewish religion. The apostle intimates that the law was not the science of salvation, it was only the elements or alphabet of it; and in the Gospel this alphabet is composed into a most glorious system of Divine knowledge: but as the alphabet is nothing of itself, unless compounded into syllables, words, sentences, and discourses; so the law, taken by itself, gives no salvation; it contains indeed the outlines of the Gospel, but it is the Gospel alone that fills up these outlines.

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Last edited by mfblume; 02-25-2019 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:42 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Context is not lost, and are you implying I did this purposely to accomplish that?



I am standing on context by using what Colossians 2 said along with what Galatians 3 said, which is why I said the actual overall picture is that the reason elements of the world are listed as law in Col 2 with traditions of men is because we not only are to avoid traditions of men, but also elementary schooling of law if those elements are said to not be something we much engage in.

Please include all I say about the issue, and not just one small part out of overall context.


Read again what I just said.



Paul said the Jews were in bondage to the elements of the world. Jews, Esaias. Jews. They were under law until Christ came, like students bound under tutorship until graduation day. That’s plain context.



He said BONDAGE, period. And like so many scholars noted apart from my own studies that arrived at the same conclusion, showing it’s self-evident, they went from one form of bondage to another.



That’s a claim you did not even attempt to justify by example. Jesus was born under the law and kept all the observances of law. That does not prove we’re meant to keep law.



It’s so plain to see in Paul’s context of Gal 3 through 4 that’s it’s hard to resist refusing to answer your statement here. I really cannot believe you cannot see the point I am making about Gal 3-4 context knowing what you’re seen in other issues. It’s like you’re in a bubble when it comes to Sabbath keeping while you are great in other aspects. You hit this issue and it’s ridiculous compared to brilliant words on other issues.

Paul was said to be speaking against law because they thought he meant law was trash and rubbish, which is what you were actually, and falsely, accusing me of antinomianism a few months ago.
Paul never stated law was trash, but it can appear to have been the case when one does not understand what Paul taught about how we are meant to live by strength of the Spirit, after prayer in faith for God to empower us to live righteously, rather than making ourselves obey rules on a list.

Paul plainly stated that the commandments of God written and engraved on stones were the MINISTRATION OF DEATH. I meant to bring this up earlier, since I recall how you waffled on that terribly so by saying Paul was not referring to the actual ten commandments in 2 Cor 3 when he distinctly said he was! And to see Sabbath fulfilled is to keep it in our rest with Christ, aside from the moral commandments to not kill, etc., which are not shadows as Sabbaths were.



No, and the same argument you use here can be said about real presence in the communion supper, which was claimed to have been kept by the early church. This is why I stick with the BIBLE, and not to so-called historical references outside the bible.



I’ve also studied this for YEARS, Esaias. YEARS. I n ever even met a sabbatarian when I began studying this, because the bible teaches about the issue. So, let’s leave how long we’ve studies this or what history after the bible says, and deal with the bible as I have been.


I already said it was a shadow of Christ’s rest through the work of the cross. I already said the context of Hebrews 4 leads up to our need to go to that throne upon which he rested, which you seemed to agree with, though you never really clarified it when I asked, after you claimed you keep Sabbath and refer to a superior on where we’re told there remains a rest to the people of God in Heb 4.



How can you twist words like this so often? The ABC comparison is doing away with the actual blocks that are painted with letters of the alphabet to teach us how to read and write, and being abandoned so that we do not have to resort to our little wooden blocks of painted letters when we actually write as adults. Keeping the day is a building block that teaches us there is a superior rest beyond mere observance of a physical day on planet earth, which is resting in the finished work of the cross.

Wonderfully enough, this is shown when Israel left Sinai, where law was given, and went a three day journey to enter the REST OF CANAAN, representing entrance into the rest of the cross by leaving law’s schoolmastery.



Show me one man keeping it in the bible before Moses came with law.



No it would not apply to all ten. How is a command to not murder fulfilled in Christ so we need not keep the refrain from murder any more?



No it cannot. And I explained that over and over and you refuse to acknowledge I ever did. AGAIN (!!) let me explain it. Sabbath was a a shadow of the rest Christ entered after his work of NEW creation, and we enter that REST by ceasing from law’s push to make us righteous through works. Now how can that apply to the other of the ten?


You’re really reaching now.

Honouring mother and father is a moral obligation aside from the amoral nature of Sabbath keeping.

Um....how many Scrabble points for antinomianism? Asking for a friend....
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:43 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Um....how many Scrabble points for antinomianism? Asking for a friend....
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:42 PM
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Bro Avery, I made typos on my cell phone. Lousy spell correct. Here's what I meant...

You did not address the greater point I noted speaking of new creation. Far from convoluted, it simply teaches that Christ did the work for new creation on the cross and rested on the right hand throne, to which Hebrews 4 tells us to come, after speaking of the shadow in the sabbath. Check out also Hebrews 10. I'm only repeating what Hebrews stated.
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Old 02-26-2019, 12:38 AM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Originally Posted by jediwill83 View Post
Um....how many Scrabble points for antinomianism? Asking for a friend....
Scrabble Word Finder
antinomianism

antinomianism is worth 19 points in the game of Scrabble®

https://www.wordunscrambler.net/scra.../antinomianism
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Old 02-26-2019, 12:55 AM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post


Who said he was antisabbatarian? You’re starting to put words in my mouth and make strawman arguments.

I said he agreed with me about what Sabbaths being a shadow referred to and did not agree with you about the intention of that reference in Paul's verse to the shadow.

He also agreed with me about the "elements of the world" being law's elements.
Yet he maintained the fourth commandment is a moral obligation, a shadow of which the substance has not arrived yet, thus Sabbath keeping is still a moral obligation. I posted that to show that even Clarke, who agrees with you on the new moons and sabbath days in Colossians, yet disagrees with you on the weekly Sabbath.

I understand why you quote commentaries, its the same reason I do. Nothing wrong with that. Although I don't know why you prefaced it with "Historicists agree" as if historicist eschatology has anything to do with seventh day Sabbath keeping? Besides which, most historicists maintained the fourth commandment is still obligatory (although many of them transferred the obligation to the first day of the week).

I know your opinion concerning stocheion is shared by many scholars. Not all, though (on the other big Sabbath thread, I believe it was, I posted a link to a scholarly, grammatical analysis of the verse in question showing that MY view is not something I cooked up myself, although I think you said you did not read it). The majority of scholars believe the Bible teaches a god squad, a great many believe it teaches paedobaptism, many believe it teaches the non-essentiality of baptism. And so on. So, the scholars are not above being corrected, nor are they above being united in error.
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Old 02-26-2019, 10:26 AM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Gal.3

[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
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